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  • Question on Android Strength

    What was the site's consensus on current timeline Android Strength vs Future Androids?

  • #2
    Originally posted by POOHEAD189 View Post
    What was the site's consensus on current timeline Android Strength vs Future Androids?
    I don't know about any "consensus" but that's how it goes in my opinion:

    Present 17 > SSJ Vegeta ~= Presdent A18 >> SSJ Future Trunks > Future 17 > Future 18

    >> means the difference in strength is big enough to grant a victory against the foe.
    > means that although stronger, the difference is not decisive.

    Future androids are clearly weaker than the Present ones, there's no doubt about that (Trunks himself confirms it once the fight with Present Androids ends).


    Regards!

    Comment


    • #3
      Trunks directly states that the androids of the present timeline are as he puts it "outrageous" in terms of power. Later on confirming that 17 and 18 are stronger than before.

      Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
      Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

      Chapter: 357 (DBZ 163), P4.3
      Trunks: “…But somehow I ended up coming to a past slightly different than the one I know…The timing of Goku’s heart disease was different, there are 3 androids, and their strength is greater too…”

      These two statements were used as the consensus more or less.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Goddess Ultimecia View Post
        Trunks directly states that the androids of the present timeline are as he puts it "outrageous" in terms of power. Later on confirming that 17 and 18 are stronger than before.

        Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
        Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

        Chapter: 357 (DBZ 163), P4.3
        Trunks: “…But somehow I ended up coming to a past slightly different than the one I know…The timing of Goku’s heart disease was different, there are 3 androids, and their strength is greater too…”

        These two statements were used as the consensus more or less.
        Not only that, but for the Cell saga to actually happen Future Trunks had to be able to kill the androids in the future, something he clearly wouldn't have been able to do in the present timeline until after the RoSaT training, which proves that the androids from the future were considerably weaker than the present ones.


        Regards!

        Comment


        • #5
          As well as Trunks confirming the present timeline androids are superior to his own timeline's androids, he also says SSJ Vegeta is "on par" with Android 18 before coming to this conclusion, and we see how 18 treats Vegeta like a school boy in the end. On top of that, numerous accounts imply Imperfect Cell at Ginger Town is superior to the Super Saiyans yet does not rival the androids, widening the gap between the future and present androids.

          SSJ Vegeta ~ Future Android 18 < Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town) << Android 18 ~ Kamiccolo (suppressed) < Android 17

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Pyrus View Post
            As well as Trunks confirming the present timeline androids are superior to his own timeline's androids, he also says SSJ Vegeta is "on par" with Android 18 before coming to this conclusion, and we see how 18 treats Vegeta like a school boy in the end. On top of that, numerous accounts imply Imperfect Cell at Ginger Town is superior to the Super Saiyans yet does not rival the androids, widening the gap between the future and present androids.

            SSJ Vegeta ~ Future Android 18 < Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town) << Android 18 ~ Kamiccolo (suppressed) < Android 17
            But SSJ Vegeta was actually on par with Present A18 in terms of brute strength, no one contradicts Trunk's claim (and SSJ Vegeta was much stronger than him) about them being equal -Piccolo only notices that this equalty is about to be shattered because Vegeta is already getting tired-.

            If A18 treats Vegeta like a kid it's because of the unlimited energy (the fight clearly reaches a point where SSJ Vegeta starts to lose to the android, and from then onwards the difference only turns bigger and bigger until the android can easily crush the saiyan), not because she was much stronger (even 17 admits that 18 would have problems against Vegeta if he received help from the other Z-warriors).

            Present A18 ~= SSJ Vegeta (just strength, not as fighters) is a direct claim from the manga.

            Regards!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by scouterSSJ View Post
              But SSJ Vegeta was actually on par with Present A18 in terms of brute strength, no one contradicts Trunk's claim (and SSJ Vegeta was much stronger than him) about them being equal -Piccolo only notices that this equalty is about to be shattered because Vegeta is already getting tired-.

              If A18 treats Vegeta like a kid it's because of the unlimited energy (the fight clearly reaches a point where SSJ Vegeta starts to lose to the android, and from then onwards the difference only turns bigger and bigger until the android can easily crush the saiyan), not because she was much stronger (even 17 admits that 18 would have problems against Vegeta if he received help from the other Z-warriors).

              Present A18 ~= SSJ Vegeta (just strength, not as fighters) is a direct claim from the manga.

              Regards!
              Vegeta was definitely not as strong as 18. 18 considered Vegeta "nothing special" around the halfway point of their fight, prior to Trunks and Piccolo's exchange. She tanked his pseudo-Big Bang Attack despite it taking her off-guard (going by the "!!" blurb by her head), blocked SSJ Trunks' sword with one arm with ease, and knocked out Trunks by tossing him into Vegeta (albeit, 17 had landed a blow to Trunks from behind prior to this assault, but still).

              Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1
              Context: after continuing to fight No.18
              Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
              No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
              Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
              No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”

              Chapter: 365 (DBZ 171), P2.5
              Context: after Vegeta says they should just let Cell absorb the androids
              Piccolo: “That would mean that Cell will greatly surpass No.17 and co., who you absolutely couldn’t handle.”


              Goku was also sensing everything while he was recovering from the heart illness and admitted he couldn't beat the androids either if Vegeta was unable to.

              Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P3.5
              Context: after Goku recovers from his illness
              Goku: “The way I am now, I definitely can’t beat the androids or this ‘Cell’ guy.”


              Later on, 18 again cemented that Vegeta was nothing to her.

              Chapter: 376 (DBZ 182), P13.6
              Context: as Vegeta challenges Cell
              No.18: “He’s a damn fool…! Does he think that someone who was helpless against me could do anything against Cell the way he is now…?!”


              The narration set a suppressed Kamiccolo to rival 18 and 17, and this same Piccolo made Vegeta shit himself. There's no room for Vegeta and 18 to be peers.

              18 >?< Kamiccolo (suppressed) > Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town) > SSJ Vegeta is what the story tells us.

              To your point about Vegeta being much stronger than Trunks, this is also untrue. Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kami all lump Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks into the same group as far as power goes. There can't be a considerable difference between the three of them or this would be noted.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Pyrus View Post

                Vegeta was definitely not as strong as 18. 18 considered Vegeta "nothing special" around the halfway point of their fight, prior to Trunks and Piccolo's exchange. She tanked his pseudo-Big Bang Attack despite it taking her off-guard (going by the "!!" blurb by her head), blocked SSJ Trunks' sword with one arm with ease, and knocked out Trunks by tossing him into Vegeta (albeit, 17 had landed a blow to Trunks from behind prior to this assault, but still).

                Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1
                Context: after continuing to fight No.18
                Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
                No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
                Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
                No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”

                Chapter: 365 (DBZ 171), P2.5
                Context: after Vegeta says they should just let Cell absorb the androids
                Piccolo: “That would mean that Cell will greatly surpass No.17 and co., who you absolutely couldn’t handle.”


                Goku was also sensing everything while he was recovering from the heart illness and admitted he couldn't beat the androids either if Vegeta was unable to.

                Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P3.5
                Context: after Goku recovers from his illness
                Goku: “The way I am now, I definitely can’t beat the androids or this ‘Cell’ guy.”


                Later on, 18 again cemented that Vegeta was nothing to her.

                Chapter: 376 (DBZ 182), P13.6
                Context: as Vegeta challenges Cell
                No.18: “He’s a damn fool…! Does he think that someone who was helpless against me could do anything against Cell the way he is now…?!”


                The narration set a suppressed Kamiccolo to rival 18 and 17, and this same Piccolo made Vegeta shit himself. There's no room for Vegeta and 18 to be peers.

                18 >?< Kamiccolo (suppressed) > Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town) > SSJ Vegeta is what the story tells us.

                To your point about Vegeta being much stronger than Trunks, this is also untrue. Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kami all lump Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks into the same group as far as power goes. There can't be a considerable difference between the three of them or this would be noted.
                It's true that everything you quote is said, but the problem is that you're dismissing all the other things that are said that don't help your stance.

                Firstly, I'm not denying that A18 was a much superior fighter than SSJ Vegeta, she definetely was and if they fought 100 times she would have won all those 100 fights. But that's not because A18 was stronger than Vegeta, it's because she had unlimited energy while Vegeta didn't.

                Let's analyse how the A18 vs SSJ Vegeta fight goes:

                1. Both Vegeta and A18 start without fighting at his maximum capacity.
                2. Then Vegeta invites A18 to fight seriously, and she agrees, winning that assauld to SSJ Vegeta.
                3. The Z-Warriors arrive, Vegeta refuses their help, and he is still clearly confident he can win (which wouldn't be the case if A18 had shown a level impossible for him. Vegeta is not Goku, he doesn't laugh when he's in the receiving end).
                4. Both Vegeta and A18 start fighting again, with Vegeta this time taking her seriously.
                5. The Z-Warriors (mostly Trunks) comment on the power of Vegeta, and how he can fight the android in equal terms.
                6. Then Piccolo explains that although it's true that Vegeta has matched her in strength, his stamina is constantly dropping.
                7. Vegeta can't match A18 anymore, and starts to take real damage which further increases the difference in power between him and A18.
                8. We reach a point where the power difference between Vegeta and A18 is so big that she can break his arms like nothing (a simple kick does the job).

                And it's not only from the Z-warriors we get confirmation that Vegeta was matching A18, A17 also confirms us that if the rest of the z-warriors decided to help Vegeta she wouldn't have been able to win also implying that the level he saw from Vegeta wasn't far from A18 (at least, while he still was 100%).

                No one can deny that A18 was superior, but it's also a stated fact that in terms of pure strength Vegeta SSJ was comparable to her.

                Regarding the difference between Vegeta and Trunks, not only it's directly stated by Kami before fusing with Piccolo, it's also demonstrated by Trunks' performance against 18. Vegeta managed to fight her for a few minutes (most of that fight was skipped for obvious resasons, it was the androids' time to shine) while Trunks was completely overpowered from the beginning.

                Finally, the A16 statement. I don't think it contradicts anything that I say considering that:

                1. A17 was stronger than A18.
                2. Kami-Piccolo had to be stronger than A17 (even if not strong enough to defeat him) because he managed to do serious damage and fight for a prolongued time.

                With this on mind, A16's claim could perfectly be translated into:
                Fused Kami-Piccolo > A17 > supressed fused Kami-Piccolo > A18 ~= SSJVegeta.

                Regards!
                Last edited by scouterSSJ; 11-02-2020, 05:21 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I see this discussion going nowhere. Good day.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pyrus View Post
                    I see this discussion going nowhere. Good day.
                    Come on man, don't take it personally.
                    I mean, I've acknowledged your quotes and answered why I don't think they contradict what I say, and if you think that SSJ Vegeta managing to match A18 after she got serious, SSJ Vegeta's attitude that in no way indicates he is being surpassed in terms of strength -until he gets tired, of course- or A17's claim that A18 wouldn't be able to win if SSJ Vegeta got any help are not valid reasons, you should explain why.

                    I mean, this is DB, not some vital matter where being wrong can harm people. We're discussing for fun, aren't we?
                    Last edited by scouterSSJ; 12-02-2020, 08:49 AM.

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