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Was Gohan a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra?

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  • Was Gohan a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra?

    Resurrecting an ancient topic because that'll be fun.

  • #2
    Never really showed the characteristics of a SSJ2, but logically he should be in the form otherwise like... why aren't you?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Goddess Ultimecia View Post
      Never really showed the characteristics of a SSJ2, but logically he should be in the form otherwise like... why aren't you?
      Guy was having performance issues with his rage. Guess he couldn't get it up consistently.

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      • #4
        Drawn as a Super Saiyan 1. Have to assume AT's intent was to display he was in that form.

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        • #5
          Oh yeah, a classic. I love this stuff. This is the sort of topic that would reliably get people into heated disagreements a few years back. Not on the tier of "Goku vs Superman", "Freeza vs base Saiyans" or anything about how how strong Gotenks was, but still enough to get people in a genuine frenzy.

          Like, he was obviously drawn as a Super Saiyan. Does it make sense that Gohan wouldn't use Super Saiyan 2 when we saw in the tournament that, even after his seven years of slacking off, he could still go SSJ2? Not really. And that's all there is to it, just a minor continuity snag, one that you can easily headcanon your way around (or just ignore). But it wasn't so simple with Dragon Ball fans in the Golden Age of Dragon Ball Online Debating. Most would agree Gohan was Super Saiyan but someone would come up with an elaborate theory about how he was Super Saiyan 2, actually, and a bloody duel would ensue.

          Anyway, he was a Super Saiyan in that fight. For some reason!
          Last edited by Topographic Oceans; 06-12-2019, 01:37 AM.

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          • #6
            Goku even gives Gohan a speech after the fight that he needs to let loose.

            Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
            Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

            Seems to imply he isn't Super Saiyan 2 when he fights Dabra.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Goddess Ultimecia View Post
              Never really showed the characteristics of a SSJ2, but logically he should be in the form otherwise like... why aren't you?
              Essentially my feelings. I think he was SSJ2 for that reason.

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              • #8
                I think a possible wrinkle in the idea of Gohan being a regular Super Saiyan, next to Dabura's comparison against Cell, is the scene with Goku's transformation against Yakon and Babidi's energy registering device. Many would just handwave it as Goku projecting an aura for illumination's sake and that he was using just the minimum amount of power. We know that traditionally auras have been used to indicate earnestness in power - the manga even directly confirms this by Whis and Krillin making the observation of Jiren's aura emission against UI Goku in chapter 41. In spite of this, Dabura wasn't exactly trembling in fear at the realisation of this strange glowing being emitting a power numerically greater than his own. On the contrary, he was eager to have all three Saiyans, plus Shin, attack him together.

                The artwork tells one story while certain statements and coincidences attest to another. There have been occasions where the lightning wasn't present for an SSJ2 but it was usually just for a panel or two. It wasn't a consistent lack thereof as we saw with Gohan against Dabura. I don't know what to make of it personally.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Thiln View Post
                  I think a possible wrinkle in the idea of Gohan being a regular Super Saiyan, next to Dabura's comparison against Cell, is the scene with Goku's transformation against Yakon and Babidi's energy registering device. Many would just handwave it as Goku projecting an aura for illumination's sake and that he was using just the minimum amount of power. We know that traditionally auras have been used to indicate earnestness in power - the manga even directly confirms this by Whis and Krillin making the observation of Jiren's aura emission against UI Goku in chapter 41. In spite of this, Dabura wasn't exactly trembling in fear at the realisation of this strange glowing being emitting a power numerically greater than his own. On the contrary, he was eager to have all three Saiyans, plus Shin, attack him together.

                  The artwork tells one story while certain statements and coincidences attest to another. There have been occasions where the lightning wasn't present for an SSJ2 but it was usually just for a panel or two. It wasn't a consistent lack thereof as we saw with Gohan against Dabura. I don't know what to make of it personally.
                  Dabra can't sense power levels though in that scene for some reason. He's not scared because he thinks Goku's just glowing, he had to rely on Babidi whipping out the kiri meter for him to get any kind of a read on him. And the kiri meter itself was topped out, so even then he didn't have a clear grasp on them.

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                  • #10
                    Gohan is only Super Saiyan 1 in the manga because that's how he was drawn. Simple as that.

                    In the anime though, Gohan is most likely a Super Saiyan 2 instead. Because while Toei isn't nearly as consistent as Toriyama with SS2's visual traits (especially that aura lightning), the anime does use a somewhat more intense and high-contrast shading for its aura that's usually reserved for SS2. Plus it actually has some extra new dialogue about how Gohan was going "full-throttle" and "trying his very hardest" and what-not.

                    The story is just as coherent either way. Trying to claim, "the art in this comic made for 12-year-olds HAS to be lying to us, and he HAS to be SS2 against Dabra, or else the story falls apart!" is a very tired and baseless argument. Whether Gohan is failing to go Super Saiyan 2, or whether he already is at SS2 and just failing to bring out enough power, the bottom line of all the surrounding dialogue is still "Gohan sucks and should be stronger than this."
                    Last edited by Kaboom; 10-12-2019, 02:17 PM.

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                    • #11
                      He was a SSJ2. Makes more sense that way.

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                      • #12
                        He was clearly a SSJ, even if he was previously shown to be able to reach SSJ2 Toriyama retconned him (and Kaiohshin) prior to reaching Babidi's spaceship.
                        Toriyama decided to make Gohan and Kaiohshin weaker because of reasons, and even if Gohan was able to reach SSJ2 in the tournament, he surely couldn't do so in Babidi's spaceship.

                        One of the few glaring contradictions of the original manga.

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                        • #13
                          I think it's pretty easy to say he was not SSJ2. Not just from art style and obvious lack of physical force, but from an actual training standpoint.

                          People say that just because he did it against Cell he could always do it from then on. Well, Goku turns SSJ against Frieza, and he has to train hard on another planet in order to learn how to control it. Gohan and future Trunks both had to train to both harness and maintain there SSJ forms.

                          Gohan only transformed to the second stage once that we are aware of, and then he went 7 years without training. It's probably not exactly easy to control, and he never got any practice. That's why Goku tells him he needs to let loose and remember what it was like to fight Cell. He isn't SSJ2 because he CAN'T do it because he never PRACTICED.

                          Add that to the animation style and it's pretty open and shut.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Juski21 View Post
                            I think it's pretty easy to say he was not SSJ2. Not just from art style and obvious lack of physical force, but from an actual training standpoint.

                            People say that just because he did it against Cell he could always do it from then on. Well, Goku turns SSJ against Frieza, and he has to train hard on another planet in order to learn how to control it. Gohan and future Trunks both had to train to both harness and maintain there SSJ forms.

                            Gohan only transformed to the second stage once that we are aware of, and then he went 7 years without training. It's probably not exactly easy to control, and he never got any practice. That's why Goku tells him he needs to let loose and remember what it was like to fight Cell. He isn't SSJ2 because he CAN'T do it because he never PRACTICED.

                            Add that to the animation style and it's pretty open and shut.
                            He transformed against Kibito in the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai.

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                            • #15
                              Gohan not being able to use SS2 well is head canon. He transformed without issue against Kibito and was prepared to fight him, Spopovich and Yamu with it. At that point in the story, he could use it just fine and nothing indicates otherwise.

                              That said, he was clearly SS1 against Dabra and Boo. Him turning SS2 was just retconned, either due to Toriyama's forgetfulness and/or stupidity.
                              Last edited by Scotty_Famalam; 03-01-2020, 03:59 PM.

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