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Time to destroy the Daizenshuu PowerLevels part 2: The Namek Saga

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  • scouterSSJ
    replied
    Originally posted by Darker View Post
    What'll part 3 be about? The movies? The games? They have their own wonky power levels.
    Since this series of threads is about destroying the Daizenshuus, I think part 3 will be about the awful explanation they gave to the Cell timelines. In terms of power levels the info given in the Daizenshuu stops at the Namek saga and the Z-movies are pure nonsense except for the DBSuper ones which were partially written by Toriyama (DBS:Broly was nearly perfect except for one "made in Toei" scene that breaks all the internal coherence of the movie but in the end it's just 2 minutes that could be erased and no one would even notice it).
    So Part 3 -> Cell saga timelines.

    And then I'll may do the DBS movies though instead of Part 4 it will be an independent thread

    Leave a comment:


  • Darker
    replied
    What'll part 3 be about? The movies? The games? They have their own wonky power levels.

    Leave a comment:


  • scouterSSJ
    replied
    Originally posted by Greeny View Post
    Gohan and Krillin's power levels I believe to be right. I think Jeice even registered their power levels near that, I'd have to check though. Keep in mind that Gohan and Krillin's powers were rising throughout the arc from the Guru boost. It wasn't a one boost thing, there were several increases. Against Ginyu they got stronger and against Frieza, they were even stronger. Vegeta would've had no need to think they could win against Frieza otherwise.
    Both Gohan and Vegeta are saiyans, which means that after each fight in which them receive injuries (at least in the Namek saga) they increase their strength.
    But Krillin is different, as a human he lacks the zenkays so his fight against the special forces granted him no power-up after being healed.

    That means that the Krilin that can fight against 23.000 Ginyu in Goku's body has the same strength than the Krilin that fought Guldo with Gohan. And with 14.000 of strength you don't fight at the same level as someone with 23.000.



    Originally posted by Greeny View Post
    Goku wasn't using Kaioken the entire fight. He didn't start using it until Frieza upped his power to 50%. So 3million, 60million, they both work. Being weakened is a good point, the numbers could indicate that that is what their full power would be. Goku and Frieza both took significant damage and that could explain why the daizenshuu gap is as big as it is. Even though in the manga Goku is pretty much clearly much more dominant.
    In the manga Goku was using the KKx10 since the beginning, since we don't see him activating it anywhere, Kaito tells us that he has been already using it and there clearly being no KKx10 aura drawn on Goku when Kaito tells us this, which means that the KKx10 had to be in use during the whole fight.

    Regarding Goku, he clearly recharged his power with the rage boost. Just compare how tired and weak he was after the Genkidama and compare him with the Goku that quits the fight after Freezer is too tired to continue, so even if the Daizenshuu tried to guess their real power, they missed that detail regarding Goku.

    On another note, there's data in the Cell saga that points towards the SSJ having 3.000.000 of power and not 30.000.000 (or 150.000.000+).

    Regards!

    Leave a comment:


  • Greeny
    replied
    Gohan and Krillin's power levels I believe to be right. I think Jeice even registered their power levels near that, I'd have to check though. Keep in mind that Gohan and Krillin's powers were rising throughout the arc from the Guru boost. It wasn't a one boost thing, there were several increases. Against Ginyu they got stronger and against Frieza, they were even stronger. Vegeta would've had no need to think they could win against Frieza otherwise.

    Goku wasn't using Kaioken the entire fight. He didn't start using it until Frieza upped his power to 50%. So 3million, 60million, they both work. Being weakened is a good point, the numbers could indicate that that is what their full power would be. Goku and Frieza both took significant damage and that could explain why the daizenshuu gap is as big as it is. Even though in the manga Goku is pretty much clearly much more dominant.

    Leave a comment:


  • scouterSSJ
    replied
    Originally posted by superperfectnerd View Post
    I agree that Goku being at 300,000 and using kaioken from the beginning as is stated would make more sense and bring the power level bloat way down and make those last zenkais Goku, Vegeta and Gohan gained seem much less ridiculous. I also can imagine that these are the levels Toriyama was more thinking of, I don't actually think he believes Freeza's forms go from around 500,000 to 1,000,000, to around 2,000,000 and then suddenly jumps up 60 times for his true form. What's the point in having so many restriction forms when they're not spaced out at all? However the guide came out and didn't Toriyama approve it? Even if he didn't really consider the literal numbers himself after Freeza's reveal of his second form being at 1,000,000.
    Those guides were made by Sueshia and while they interview Toriyama and he writes the introductroy message, the guide was not made nor supervised by him. In fact there's that interview in the super exciting guide where he clearly contradicts the guides.


    Originally posted by superperfectnerd View Post
    I also agree that both Goku and Freeza clearly couldn't be at full strength in their final clash and it's frustrating when people bring it up like those numbers are a clear indication of their constant power during the fight. I took the numbers to mean that POTENTIALLY at full strength ssj Goku can reach 150,000,000 and Freeza can reach 120,000,000 at 100%. However, Goku could barely stand moments before he turned ssj and Freeza had been hit with a Spirit Bomb that gave him visual struggle and damage. Goku was in fact more weakened than Freeza in that fight, hence why Freeza could battle him despite not having as much potential power when fresh. This is further proven by Freeza's confidence in his new mecha body's power being easily handled by a full power ssj. He never fought Goku at full power.
    But Goku did fought at maximum power because the rage boost replenished his energy. If you look at chapter 325 of the manga, just after Goku quits, he turns to his normal non-SSJ form and you can see how his power has returned to what it should be (he can not only fly like nothing but also dodge one of Freezer's kienzans, which meant that he truly was at full power).

    Goku surely had no energy before turning into a SSJ (he was more injured and tired than Freezer), but after the rage boost he went at 100% again.


    Originally posted by superperfectnerd View Post
    I do however disagree with ssj being only a ten times boost, because if that's the case then what's the point of it? Goku can already use kaioken times 10 so casually that nobody except King Kai realised he was using it and he can push it up to 20 times if he wants to. Ssj would be half as strong as kaioken in a pinch.
    There could still be various reasons for that:

    1. The SSJ was only a 10x for Goku at Namek, but the mastered SSJ he displayed against Cell had to be much, much stronger (at least a 40x multiplier). In other words, the SSJ had much more margin of improvment than the KK.
    2. The KK has much, much, much more burden on Goku's body than turning into a SSJ. In fact, it's implied in the Cell saga that Goku already reached a point where the simple fact of using a KK could kill him.

    1+2 are enough reasons as to why Goku never used the KK although it's implied he had to use it against Cold&Mecha in the TimeLines we don't see (the only scenario where this should happen is if an unavoidable fight couldn't be resolved with just the SSJ, and the only that fits that bill is the fight vs Cold).


    Originally posted by superperfectnerd View Post
    The problem with Goku being at 300,000 is that that makes Vegeta and enaged Gohan technically much stronger than he is. Freeza was stated to be at 1,000,000 in his second form, only twice his first form, he then transformed again and again and yet final zenkai boosted Vegeta was confident enough to take him on, clearly knowing he'd surpassed the power he sensed from the second and third form at least.
    I wouldn't go as far as that with Vegeta's power. His confidence was more because he thought he had become the SSJ than actually comparing their strength, mostly because he didn't realise the full extent of his power until he tried to fight Freezer. He was above Piccolo as it's easily established (I would give him 1,500,000 more or less) but I don't think he was in any condition to compare his strength with any other because he wasn't even aware of his full potential at that point.

    On the other hand, both Vegeta and Goku always demonstrated being able to surpass him with much less effort, it seems that Goku was the Saiyan with the lowest potential of them all, but he always managed to be one step above the others thank's to his various trainings that the rest of the saiyans lacked.

    Originally posted by superperfectnerd View Post
    It works for the Namek arc because Goku is still stronger than him with kaioken and ssj if Goku's power is at 300,000 but then in the android saga base Trunks is implied to be stronger than Vegeta and ssj Goku is stronger than Trunks, so base Goku is stronger than Trunks. I don't think Goku's bas is supposed to have gotten THAT much higher, Goku would be weirdly playing catch up to Vegeta once the latter attained ssj because the only thing he lacks is ssj, but they're always around the same strength in equal forms.
    That's not a contradiction as I see it because I don't view the SSJ as a fixed multiplier.
    As stated in the manga, the SSJ increases its effectivity the more control you have over your Ki, and Goku was by far the one who had the best ki mastering in the whole series.
    In other words, Vegeta could very well be far above Goku while in his base form but below him in his SSJ form because Goku has always been much, much better than anyone else at the things that make the SSJ stronger.

    Regards!

    Leave a comment:


  • superperfectnerd
    replied
    I agree that Goku being at 300,000 and using kaioken from the beginning as is stated would make more sense and bring the power level bloat way down and make those last zenkais Goku, Vegeta and Gohan gained seem much less ridiculous. I also can imagine that these are the levels Toriyama was more thinking of, I don't actually think he believes Freeza's forms go from around 500,000 to 1,000,000, to around 2,000,000 and then suddenly jumps up 60 times for his true form. What's the point in having so many restriction forms when they're not spaced out at all? However the guide came out and didn't Toriyama approve it? Even if he didn't really consider the literal numbers himself after Freeza's reveal of his second form being at 1,000,000.

    I also agree that both Goku and Freeza clearly couldn't be at full strength in their final clash and it's frustrating when people bring it up like those numbers are a clear indication of their constant power during the fight. I took the numbers to mean that POTENTIALLY at full strength ssj Goku can reach 150,000,000 and Freeza can reach 120,000,000 at 100%. However, Goku could barely stand moments before he turned ssj and Freeza had been hit with a Spirit Bomb that gave him visual struggle and damage. Goku was in fact more weakened than Freeza in that fight, hence why Freeza could battle him despite not having as much potential power when fresh. This is further proven by Freeza's confidence in his new mecha body's power being easily handled by a full power ssj. He never fought Goku at full power.

    I do however disagree with ssj being only a ten times boost, because if that's the case then what's the point of it? Goku can already use kaioken times 10 so casually that nobody except King Kai realised he was using it and he can push it up to 20 times if he wants to. Ssj would be half as strong as kaioken in a pinch.

    The problem with Goku being at 300,000 is that that makes Vegeta and enaged Gohan technically much stronger than he is. Freeza was stated to be at 1,000,000 in his second form, only twice his first form, he then transformed again and again and yet final zenkai boosted Vegeta was confident enough to take him on, clearly knowing he'd surpassed the power he sensed from the second and third form at least. So Vegeta's zenkais are still crazy big. It works for the Namek arc because Goku is still stronger than him with kaioken and ssj if Goku's power is at 300,000 but then in the android saga base Trunks is implied to be stronger than Vegeta and ssj Goku is stronger than Trunks, so base Goku is stronger than Trunks. I don't think Goku's bas is supposed to have gotten THAT much higher, Goku would be weirdly playing catch up to Vegeta once the latter attained ssj because the only thing he lacks is ssj, but they're always around the same strength in equal forms.
    Last edited by superperfectnerd; 14-07-2019, 03:01 PM.

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  • Time to destroy the Daizenshuu PowerLevels part 2: The Namek Saga

    After exposing the incoherencies in the Daizenshuu's power metrics in the saiyan saga, it's time to debunk the awful numbers they gave for the Freezer saga.

    Krilin -> 13.000
    Gohan -> 14.000

    Those numbers may seem a good guess at first glance, but they have a glaring problem: they're inconsistent with the fight against Ginyu in Goku's body.
    14.000 for Gohan if it's pre-Reecoome-zenkay may seem good, but then Krilin can't be 13.000.
    On the other hand, in the manga after Gohan unleashes his potential Krilin thinks he may be able to defeat Vegeta (earth Vegeta, that is) so 14.000 for Gohan and 13.000 for Krilin (who has no zenkays) is completely wrong.
    Mínimum they were both above 22.000 of strength.

    Vegeta -> 30.000 -> That may be one of the best guesses the Daizenshuu has made. While in the corrected, definitive edition Vegeta is stated to be "above 30.000", credits for the guide for realizing that the "above 20.000" statement that was given in the original manga was an error made by Toriyama (Vegeta was already at 24.000 when he arrived at Namek).


    From now on the numbers become crazy.

    Base Goku 3,000,000 -> I think that's the first big mistake the Daizenshuu makes. Goku, in his fight against Freezer, fought with the KKx10 activated since the beginning as it's explained by Kaito later on in the fight. The thing here is that the 3,000,000 for the Goku that starts fighting Freezer is not a bad approxiamation, but that Goku had been using the KKx10 already, so his real strength was that of 300,000.
    This can be further demonstrated in the Cell saga.

    Freezer (60,000,000 at 50%): Again and like with Goku, there's an extra 0 here due to the KKx10 misinterpretation. 6,000,000 would be a much better guess.

    Freezer (120,000,000 at 100%): This one I have to separate it from the 60,000,000 at 50% because besides the KKx10 misunderstanding, that number brokes one of the most basic rules in any DB fight.
    The more injured a fighter is, the less strength he has. Now this rule is the basis for nearly every single DB fight, and it's only broken when the occasional rage boosts happen (mostly to Gohan, though Goku in his fight vs Freezer also had one).
    By estimating Freezer's power at his 100% without taking into account the huge amount of damage he had received from the Genkidama they broke one of Toriyama's most basic rules. Even Freezer acknowledges in the manga that he has lost a ton of power because of the injuries, so the only explanation for that number is that they simply multiplied the 50% estimation by 2, without realising that Freezer didn't use his 100% just after he used his 50%, but after much later and after havin received a ton of damage.

    When Freezer decided to use the 100% of his power against Goku, his 50% was much, much lower than his 50% if he had been at full condition. Does anyone think that Vegeta had 18,000 of power at the end of the fight at the earth, when even a badly injured Krilin could've killed him? Of course he wasn't, and the same applies to Freezer.


    SSJ Goku 150,000,000: This may be the worst guess in the whole Daizenshuu guide. It accumulates all the errors made to assume 100% Freezer had 120,000,000 of power in his fight at Namek when he went 100% and it adds a third one:

    10% more of strength is a decisive advantage in DB. We see this for every fight we have numbers for: Gohan 1309 vs Radtiz 1200, Vegeta 24,000 vs Dodoria 21,000+... if a fighter with 10% more power than it's rival attacks with the intent to kill, the fight doesn't last long. But in this case, we know Freezer lost because at his 100% he had serious stamina problems, Goku explains that to us when he decides to quit the fight.
    And the difference the morons of the Daizenshuu give in favour of Goku is more than 20% over Freezer's power. Goku should've quited the match before it even started with a difference in power so huge or he could've ended the fight in a single blow.

    So the 150,000,000 number is the accumulation of:

    1. Not realising Goku fought with the KKx10 since the beginning.
    2. Not understanding that fighters lose strength when they're injured.
    3. Not understanding that a 10% of difference in power in DB is a decisive advantage.

    With all of that in mind, I always estimated SSJ Goku to be at around 2,800,000 - 3,000,000 more or less (in Namek). This is further supported by the fact that the only time Toriyama has spoken about power levels it was to say that the 50x estimation for the SSJ form was just too big, and that he drew that scene with Goku multiplying his power by 10 instead, which surely makes much, much, much more sense.


    Regards.


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