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Time to destroy the Daizenshuu PowerLevels part 1: The Saiyan Saga

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  • Time to destroy the Daizenshuu PowerLevels part 1: The Saiyan Saga

    Dragon Ball is famous for a lot of things, but one concept that it popularized was that of the "power levels".
    Since they were introduced in the Saiyan saga Toriyama made them the center of the fights he wrote, and even if after the Namek saga he didn't give us concrete numbers, he still played by the same rules that were introduced back there.

    The problem is... Toriyama was a good writter, or at least, much better than what the usual shounen manga author tends to be and much, much better than the writters at Toei, who never managed to understand even the most basic ideas that Toriyama played with.

    So Shueshia realized that tons of money could be made by publishing the Daizenshuu, guides that would explain the DB manga to the fans, but weren't able (or didn't care) to find someone that actually understood Toriyama's work, and so they destroyed Toriyama's work with awful guides that, like the anime filler, didn't understand the manga.

    I'm going to focus my critique in the "power level" section of the Daizenshuu vol. 4, four pages full of errors that followed the logic of the anime and not the one of the manga and thus brought lot's of DB fans to have the wrong idea about the series.

    With the introduction having been made, let's start discussing what's wrong:

    Raditz 1500: This one is extremely retarded, and I can't even understand how someone thought of that number. For what I've read, there's an interview with Toriyama stating that Raditz was a bit stronger than a Saibaman, and that he would've won a fight against one of them even if with difficulties, and so the author of the guide thought that 1500 was above 1200 but close enough to it.
    Fatal error considering that Gohan with a power of 1309 nearly 1-Hit Koed him and Piccolo could've killed him with his 1330 attack. So even when such evidences are there to estimate Raditz's power, the guide manages to get it wrong.

    Nappa 4000: Another example of the guide being very wrong. Nappa may have had the equivalent of 4000 of strength while fighting the z-warriors or in his first round against Goku. But after Vegeta asks him to calm down he manages to fight Goku at nearly the same level, and that was after having been injured by the z-warriors and Goku's initial stomp.
    If after having been weakened he still managed to fight Goku, and Goku was over 8000, it's pretty obvious that Nappa can't possibly be 4000. He was at least 8000 when he fought Goku, probably even more considering he matched Goku in speed and strength but had much, much more durability (even Goku is surprised by that), and if we estimate the power of a fresh Nappa, it could very well be 10,000 or even 12,000.
    But 4,000? That's bullshit.

    Goku KKx4 32.000: If the guide referred to a fresh Goku activating the KKx4 before starting to fight, then that would be right. But the guide refers to Goku in his fight with Vegeta, and in his fight with Vegeta Goku only activated the KKx4 after having already destroyed his body with the KKx3 and having taken a bit of damage from Vegeta.
    That Goku didn't had 8000 of power when he used the KKx4, it probably had 4000 of power at the very best or even less, and that's the power the KK multiplied and not the 8000 he had at the beginning of the fight.
    In DB a character loses strength when he is injured, that's a rule that Toriyama respects until the Bu saga and that the author of that guide never understood.

    Regards.

  • #2
    Good post, I agree with a lot of what you said. Raditz being that high doesn't make sense at all when in the manga he was said to be as strong as a Saibamen and as you brought up in the interview that Toriyama said he was around their strength, but could beat one. Those two statements don't suggest a 300 power level difference. I agree that Nappa's power level being at 4,000 straight up doesn't make sense, especially when I believe they have Piccolo's power level published as 3,500. However I don't think Nappa is at 8000 or higher. As we see in his fight against Goku he has incredible stamina and is durable, I don't think he lost his strength against Goku or before that against the others. I think he was pretty much the same throughout. As for the Kaioken x4, I'd have to disagree with you. Goku needed Kaioken x3 to beat Vegeta and stay ahead of him. He showed no signs of falling behind or getting weaker. Vegeta then used his Galick Gun and was confident that he could overpower Goku with it, rising his power up higher and Goku's Kamehameha being equal in power. Based on all that, I don't think Goku had gotten any weaker and so his Kaioken x4 shot him to 32,000.

    I like that this is called Part 1, I hope to see more of these.
    <a href=https://66.media.tumblr.com/a778744563b75011121936a823684030/tumblr_psl1u83vEI1qgwefso5_500.gif target=_blank>https://66.media.tumblr.com/a7787445...wefso5_500.gif</a>

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Greeny View Post
      However I don't think Nappa is at 8000 or higher. As we see in his fight against Goku he has incredible stamina and is durable, I don't think he lost his strength against Goku or before that against the others. I think he was pretty much the same throughout.
      While it's undeniable that Nappa was very durable, he still took some damage mostly from Goku.
      I think he is in the 8000 at the very least because he managed to match Goku in both speed and strength, and only lost sligthly to him when he attacked with his mouth beam but I think that was more because of the KameHame being a superior technique than Goku's might (the Sayans were very bad when it came to Ki manipulation, and only Vegeta had a special technique that could compare to the Kame Hame Ha).
      But with Goku being above 8000, even if Nappa didn't lose any strength he still performed close enought to him to be in the low 8000s or very, very high 7000s.

      Originally posted by Greeny View Post
      As for the Kaioken x4, I'd have to disagree with you. Goku needed Kaioken x3 to beat Vegeta and stay ahead of him. He showed no signs of falling behind or getting weaker.
      Both Kaito and Goku stated that the KKx3 would damage Goku's body, and I think that in that case I can prove my point with hard facts.
      The first time Goku activated the KKx3 he completely overpowered Vegeta and his attacks dealt a lot of damage, which made him lose some strength. The second time Goku activates the KKx3 he barely manages to match Vegeta's power, which means that the time he spent with the KKx3 activated (and also it's second activation) weakened him even more than the damage he managed to deal to Vegeta with it.
      That's why he had to resort to the KKx4 to deal with Vegeta's Garlick Ho, but after that Goku's strength was nearly depleted.

      If you think about it, a 32000 units of strength Goku firing a KameHame at maximum strength against a 18000 Vegeta would've meant an insta-death. The KKx4 barely put Goku above Vegeta for an instant, but the damage it dealt to Goku's body plus the damage Goku had already acumulated just gave him the strength to overpower Vegeta's technique, but not kill him (just injure him a bit more).


      I like that this is called Part 1, I hope to see more of these.
      Yeah, I'm also planning on debunking the numbers they gave for the Namek saga (mostly SSJ Goku, wich is in my opinion an amalgamation of all the misunderstandments made in Toei of how DB power levels work).

      Regards!

      Comment


      • #4
        It does seem interesting how, in spite of Raditz being so strong... He never went for the kill with Goku, he just toyed with him and Piccolo.

        But was he holding back, or perhaps he pitied his younger brother?

        Still, the gap between the two is crazy, it's far bigger than when Vegeta faced Dodoria, and that was a small gap that still resulted in a huge stomp.
        The Mighty Bakuzan

        I’m the kind of guy who always liked picking on the weak! That’s the true reason why I searched for strength. Man, it feels so good to admit this!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Darker View Post
          It does seem interesting how, in spite of Raditz being so strong... He never went for the kill with Goku, he just toyed with him and Piccolo.

          But was he holding back, or perhaps he pitied his younger brother?

          Still, the gap between the two is crazy, it's far bigger than when Vegeta faced Dodoria, and that was a small gap that still resulted in a huge stomp.
          As you say, Raditz spent all his fight toying with Goku and Piccolo. More than pitying Goku, I think Raditz saw him as a disgrace to the saiyan race and wanted to torture him instead of going for a rapid kill.
          Of course, that 10% rule only aplies when a fighter is serious and taking advantage of his power, like we saw when Goku 1-hit crippled Nappa (a very durable fighter) with the KKx2 or as you say Vegeta destroying Dodoria easily even if he was fighting with all his power.

          In the Vegeta vs Goku fight, for example, Vegeta also states that he is pulling the strength of his hits. He only goes serious after Goku attacks with the KKx3, but then he had no chance to surpass Goku because he used the KKx4 and when Vegeta transformed into an ape he got cocky and confident again.

          The same goes for KKx10 Goku vs 50% Freezer, after Goku takes the beating Freezer tells him that he is pulling back the strength of his punches because he doesn't want to end it all in a single hit.

          Regards!

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