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On Raditz moving at Light speed.

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  • On Raditz moving at Light speed.

    I know it has long been the consensus that Raditz does not really move at light speed. However, I'm in the middle of a debate with another forum goer about this very topic, and I am trying to challenge this consensus. We not only have the English dub piccolo directly stating Raditz moved at light speed, but we also have the Japanese Manga calling piccolos special beam canon, which raditz dodged, a "light gun" and a "laser". Now, I understand this evidence is not airtight. However, the evidence against Raditz moving at light speed Is even weaker. The only real argument brought against me has been of Gotenks in the Buu Saga circling the world multiple times at a speed lower than light speed and then bragging about it to piccolo.

    But this is Circumstantial Evidence. While the evidence of Raditz being able to move light speed is Direct Evidence. He directly dodged Piccolos Special Beam canon, which is referred to as a laser kind of attack. Lasers move at light speed. Now, to explain why Gotenks didnt move light speed while circling the world I offer this explanation. When Raditz dodged piccolos attack he literally only moved 2 feet. Which would take far, far less energy than it would take Gotenks trying to circle the world at Light Speed. Thus yes, Gotenks is massively stronger and faster than Raditz, but evidence shows trying to sustain light speed for tens of thousands of miles, probably takes millions of times more energy, than Raditz taking two steps at light speed to dodge piccolos attack. We also have to consider that Gotenks fused form wasn't entirely stable, and him trying to max him self out at full speed before fighting Buu probably would not be a smart idea. Thus he used a slower, but still impressive speed to impress piccolo.

  • #2
    Too bad Dyspo disproved this lol

    Reaper? A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction.
    In the end, what they chose to call us is irrelevant. We simply... are. We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite.
    Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.

    Comment


    • Elite Saiyan
      Elite Saiyan commented
      Editing a comment
      Too bad the Original Manga of Dragon Ball will always be the most canon source of all.

      When Goku was a teenager, he outraced the Taiyoken, or Solar Flare technique. Tenshinhan created a burst of AOE light that blinds all opponents. Goku outraced it a short distance and stole Master Roshi's sunglasses, in order to shield himself, and then strike Tenshinhan before the light had even dissipated. That makes teen Goku lightspeed. Teenage Goku only had a power level of around <200. If he were slower than Light, the Light flash would have reached Goku's eyes before Goku could react, let alone run to grab Roshi's sunglasses.


      This was in the Original Japanese Anime, and if im not mistaken, also in the original Japanese manga.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtx0vNrrEQk&t=926s

      Go to the 6:55 mark.
      Last edited by Elite Saiyan; 05-04-2019, 02:58 AM.

  • #3
    As Darker mentioned, Dyspo is supposed to be quick, and he goes at light speed during the tournament of power, a point of which I think it's rather fair to say Raditz probably wouldn't even be able to blink before any given fighter of worth knocked him out of the arena. We also have Gotenks going around the world several times over the course of presumably more than a few seconds, both of which fly in the face of Raditz being light speed. And again, attacks don't necessarily do what their name suggests, Vegeta's Big Bang isn't even that big a bang (again Nappa's nameless finger strike has a larger reach), and that's ignoring that it's referring to the event that created the universe as we know it and expanded its size from before.

    Galick Gun isn't a gun in any way shape or form, even as a verb. Supernova is not literally a star exploding, and is in fact one of the weaker attacks that can 'only' destroy a planet, but not a sun (Cell would lay claim to that later). The name means nothing here. And of particular note is that Raditz being light speed doesn't really do anything of note in dragon ball, at no point do the characters need to make long journeys across solar systems (and usually they get ferried, either by IT, or a vehicle, or Whis when they do).

    You're trying to argue that anything Raditz can do is impressive to a Piccolo who's lived through Freeza, Cell, and now is trying to prepare for Buu. Raditz was pathetically weak even compared to Nappa, let alone someone like Freeza, let alone the androids, let alone Super Perfect Cell, let alone now Buu. Raditz is a tortoise compared to Piccolo, be it two hundred steps or two steps. Hell even as early as Goku on Namek he was moving so fast Burter couldn't even see him. There is no way Gotenks going as fast as Raditz, even at his quickest, for any amount of time (no matter how long) would impress anyone worth impressing (in this case Piccolo).
    Last edited by Tinny; 04-04-2019, 02:53 PM.

    Signature and Avatar by NinjaSushi

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    • Tinny
      Tinny commented
      Editing a comment
      Except none of that proves Goku outruns light, first of all again, the problem with Raditz is magnified, now it's kid Goku who is apparently comparable to a fusion super saiyan doing anything. Tien also closed his eyes, otherwise he would have seen Goku (they are comparable, otherwise Goku would just speed blitz him), and wouldn't be so damn confused as to how Goku has glasses, especially if Tien could also outrun his attack. Your argument still relies on basically ignoring all events within the story of dragon ball, the relative speed and strength of characters, and the actual feat you're referencing.

      Here's a quick question, why do you think Tien didn't see Goku move? Everyone else got blinded obviously, but why didn't Tien, who is Goku's equal here see him?

      Also if this is the case Why the hell is Piccolo claiming Raditz moves at the speed of light? A speed of which even Old King Piccolo could move faster than (because he was the big bad villain who took down Tien, and this Piccolo is far stronger, faster, and overall better than that Piccolo)

      No seriously, you claimed that, first with the dub, then with his attack, but if this is the case, you realize King Piccolo obliterated Tien right? Kid Goku, Tien, all were weaker than him, and now you're claiming that Piccolo is using the now apparently slow as molasses speed of light as an example, and that Gotenks is using this speed that even a much weaker Kid Goku could compare with to impress a man who could, by your own statements, be presumably millions of times faster than the Goku dealing with the Taioken?

      At this point, it's pretty clear you have utterly no idea of what any of the characters can do, what they have done, or how they have done it considering your claims keep contradicting everything in the story, and now even your other claims. Nothing gets contradicted if Dyspo is the one going light speed, while everything goes all wack if we ASSUME that Goku was moving light speed rather than simply going faster than the crowd (who are focused on Tien's solar flare at this moment, and are again, much slower and weaker than Goku) could see while Tien had his eyes shut. You call it inconsistent, but this is only reason to disregard the feat, explain the discrepancies, and given you immediately said there are contradictions, I get the feeling you don't think you can explain them
      Last edited by Tinny; 05-04-2019, 10:23 PM.

    • Elite Saiyan
      Elite Saiyan commented
      Editing a comment
      Except that it does prove it. Tien fired the solar flare before goku had moved. Goku got the glasses before the light reached him and blinded him. My job is not to explain the inconsistencies. It is merely to show they exist. All this other stuff about how it doesnt make sense later in the series is just circumstantial evidence. It doesnt disprove anything. My evidence is direct evidence. Goku would be blinded by Tiens flash if he wasn't fast enough to react to it. Thats a fact. Why dont more powerful villains just outrun the solar flare when its used on them later in the series? I dont know, it makes little sense, I have no explanation, but this happened in canon.
      Last edited by Elite Saiyan; 06-04-2019, 12:39 AM.

    • Tinny
      Tinny commented
      Editing a comment
      Despite the fact that Goku reacting in between the time Tien closing his eyes and him actually firing the solar flare would explain far more than your explanation which calls into question the very concept of scaling, even characters to themselves. Even if I agreed, I can just as easily say that they got slower later, and that it isn't my job to explain the inconsistency. You're basically arguing against the concept of feats at this point, ironically in order to preserve your dubious reading of a feat. Under this explanation EVERYTHING makes sense, and Dragon Ball isn't an incoherent mess compared to your reading.

      I have explanations for what you have brought up, what do you have besides a desire for them to be light speed, even if in the process you ruin the narrative integrity of the story, the very concept of using feats, and to a greater degree the concept of even putting characters against each other in a versus that doesn't occur in the story?

      Seriously, the answer to all your questions is so easily solved with base level immediate observations. Piccolo named it that, that doesn't mean it's literal. Goku got there while Tien wasn't looking. Etc. Nothing in the story is broken like this, while everything breaks with your supposition.
      Last edited by Tinny; 06-04-2019, 09:09 PM.

  • #4
    And let us again note that Piccolo was tired when he caught up to Gotenks, who had been napping for an indeterminate amount of time.

    Unless Gotenks was literally napping for fractions of a fraction a second Piccolo should have caught up to him almost instantly given light travels the planet roughly 7 times per second.
    Clearly it took Piccolo time to travel there and you're not telling me he's tired because he was right behind Gotenks because such a thing would have been highlighted, Piccolo wasn't even on Gotenks' radar he was doing his own thing.
    At absolute maximum Piccolo had to travel 20,000KM to the other side of the planet, which is 0.1338763440860215 seconds at light speed.
    Except no it isn't, it's half that, 0.06693817204 seconds.


    This whole light speed thing would truly make Dragon Ball an absolutely ridiculous series if you actually consider how movement functions.
    People would essentially be teleporting around the whole planet, any time anyone needs to travel somewhere they would be there right away and if Raditz at 1200PL somehow has to consume half his Ki to move like 15 feet at light speed then people literally millions of times stronger than him would logically be able to move millions of times further than he did using half their power.
    Which is an absolutely ridiculous calculation no matter how you slice it.



    Just accept that this is incorrect.

    The list of things that don't make sense never ends if not.
    Literally any time people travel on a planet they should already be there. Cell should have been able to canvas the entire globe to look for Android #18 in like a couple of minutes and yet they clearly didn't leave that particular island filled territory.
    Krillin should instantly have been able to get the remote.
    Kid Buu missing Hercule is an absolute joke.
    Gohan being late for school is simply hilarious.
    Snake Way should have taken Goku at most 5.3 seconds(if we go by 1 million KM)
    Finding Imperfect Cell should have been easy.
    Buuhan should have caught up to Goku and Vegeta before they could say a single word.
    Instant Transmission would be the most worthless move out there.

    The list could go on and on and this is literally all based on one throwaway line that straight up makes no sense and requires ignoring everything I just mentioned and more.

    Comment


    • Elite Saiyan
      Elite Saiyan commented
      Editing a comment
      Back in Dragon Ball Krillin and Master Roshi had a battle in less than a second. Not a blow, an entire battle, no one could see it. To be that fast they would have to be moving at least 17500 meters every second or 38146 mph! At this point they would be moving way, way faster than the speed of sound, and this is the very conservative estimate. They could be moving far far faster than even that. https://www.visiondirect.co.uk/blog/how-fast-can-we-see

      Krillin and Master Roshi are just humans and this is before DBZ, Even the weakest of Saiyans are probably many, many orders of magnitude faster than this, as Saiyans can achieve physical feats no human can hope to come close to.

      When Goku was a child, he was able to leap about 20 stories into the air, and catch a Dragon Ball after making a wish. Dragon Balls are supposed to travel to the farthest corners of the Earth after making a wish in an instant, and Goku jumped 20 stories before the ball could fly a mere three feet. I never formally calculated that, but Goku at 12 was already a respectable fraction of the speed of light, based off this.

      When he was a teenager, he outraced the Taiyoken, or Solar Flare technique. Tenshinhan created a burst of AOE light that blinds all opponents. Goku outraced it a short distance and stole Master Roshi's sunglasses, in order to shield himself, and then strike Tenshinhan before the light had even dissipated. That makes teen Goku lightspeed. If he were slower than Light, the Light flash would have reached Goku's eyes before Goku could react, let alone run to grab Roshi's sunglasses.


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtx0vNrrEQk&t=926s

      Go to the 6:55 mark.

      And when he was 18, he and Piccolo achieved invisibility through sheer speed. Not just FTE like Kuririn and Jackie above, but they turned totally invisible for prolonged periods of time, and they could only be sensed through their ki, all other senses became useless. Becoming invisible means you are moving faster than light.

      This is consistent with Piccolo blasting the moon and his beam reaching it in a couple seconds. IIRC his beam was about lightspeed, maybe a little slower, but the Makakosoppo or whatever it's called would be magnitudes faster, and Raditz outraced that. So Raditz is 100% confirmed lightspeed.

      The Kaioken only lasts for the span of a heartbeat, meaning we're talking about microseconds here, and Goku and Vegeta had extremely prolonged, brutal conflicts repeatedly while Goku was using the Kaioken.

      An oft forgotten feat is how Goku was raising and lowering his Battle Power too quickly for scouters to even pick up. That's FTL reactions from Goku because the Scouters easily pick up signals from across the planet instantly, and even signals from between different planets.
      Last edited by Elite Saiyan; 05-04-2019, 03:42 AM.

  • #5
    Back in Dragon Ball Krillin and Master Roshi had a battle in less than a second. Not a blow, an entire battle, no one could see it. To be that fast they would have to be moving at least 17500 meters every second or 38146 mph! At this point they would be moving way, way faster than the speed of sound, and this is the very conservative estimate. They could be moving far far faster than even that.
    That's a ridiculous calculation lol they do not have to be going that fast to be imperceivable and their fight wasn't that expansive.
    The only reason you can see fast objects moving is because they're at a distance from you, the sun moves at 43,000 miles per hour yet you can barely register it's movement by eye it seems so slow.
    Meanwhile if there's a fly buzzing in your face it's extremely hard to keep control of, because it doesn't follow a set trajectory. Even though it's probably going at like 2mph.

    A fight obviously doesn't follow a trajectory so they'd be flitting about all over.

    And then there's just retcon, lots of details don't add up and it makes literally no sense to ignore future confirmed figures and just continue to scale from ones in the past to create fantasy numbers.


    You still never disproved anything I said, throwing out wildly inconsistent feats doesn't debunk things that happen later which call them in to question.

    Why did it take Krillin more than half a second to get to Bulma for the remote? Why was it considered efficient for Bulma to meet him half way? Unless Bulma also has light speed reactions, which is ridiculous, there's no way you could claim her ship was just that fast. Especially not with everything that transpires during that.

    Comment


    • Elite Saiyan
      Elite Saiyan commented
      Editing a comment
      The fact that it doesnt make sense later in the series, does not change the fact that these things happened in canon. Also yes they have to be moving at least that fast to be impercievable to the eye at that close range. If you want to argue that fact, go argue with the science article i linked.
      Last edited by Elite Saiyan; 06-04-2019, 12:42 AM.

  • #6
    I'd recomment posting and not just commenting on other people's posts, Elite Saiyan. It's a bit confusing, and we can't have people like Steve double posting.

    Reaper? A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction.
    In the end, what they chose to call us is irrelevant. We simply... are. We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite.
    Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.

    Comment


    • #7
      well he casually dodged attacks very very close to the speed of light. i assume piccolo and goku were the first one who surpassed that back in 23 budokai

      Comment


      • #8
        Look guys, I appreciate the tenacity, but showing that goku moving light speed in Dragon Ball doesnt make sense later in the series, does not disprove that it happened. It may be unexplained, but this happened in the canon, thats all im saying. Does anyone have any contrary evidence other than "oh it makes no sense later in the story"
        Last edited by Elite Saiyan; 06-04-2019, 12:32 AM.

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        • #9
          Originally posted by Steve View Post
          And let us again note that Piccolo was tired when he caught up to Gotenks, who had been napping for an indeterminate amount of time.

          Unless Gotenks was literally napping for fractions of a fraction a second Piccolo should have caught up to him almost instantly given light travels the planet roughly 7 times per second.
          Clearly it took Piccolo time to travel there and you're not telling me he's tired because he was right behind Gotenks because such a thing would have been highlighted, Piccolo wasn't even on Gotenks' radar he was doing his own thing.
          At absolute maximum Piccolo had to travel 20,000KM to the other side of the planet, which is 0.1338763440860215 seconds at light speed.
          Except no it isn't, it's half that, 0.06693817204 seconds.


          This whole light speed thing would truly make Dragon Ball an absolutely ridiculous series if you actually consider how movement functions.
          People would essentially be teleporting around the whole planet, any time anyone needs to travel somewhere they would be there right away and if Raditz at 1200PL somehow has to consume half his Ki to move like 15 feet at light speed then people literally millions of times stronger than him would logically be able to move millions of times further than he did using half their power.
          Which is an absolutely ridiculous calculation no matter how you slice it.



          Just accept that this is incorrect.

          The list of things that don't make sense never ends if not.
          Literally any time people travel on a planet they should already be there. Cell should have been able to canvas the entire globe to look for Android #18 in like a couple of minutes and yet they clearly didn't leave that particular island filled territory.
          Krillin should instantly have been able to get the remote.
          Kid Buu missing Hercule is an absolute joke.
          Gohan being late for school is simply hilarious.
          Snake Way should have taken Goku at most 5.3 seconds(if we go by 1 million KM)
          Finding Imperfect Cell should have been easy.
          Buuhan should have caught up to Goku and Vegeta before they could say a single word.
          Instant Transmission would be the most worthless move out there.

          The list could go on and on and this is literally all based on one throwaway line that straight up makes no sense and requires ignoring everything I just mentioned and more.
          The last part is false. Instant Transmission is useful because it doesn't consume a lot of Ki and get's to locations effectively. Using Ki to get to where you need or want to be isn't useful since you burn more Ki the more exertive the task you need the Ki for.

          Example:

          Goku trying to conserve Ki versus Vegeta during the Saiyan saga. Without Kaioken x3, Goku didn't have the Ki to harm Vegeta, who's Ki allowed all his stats to be higher, in addition of also being a great fighter on top of that.

          Goku flew half way across Namek, in just a split moment, literally seconds before Frieza was gonna kill Vegeta mind you. Went at least relativistic speeds since it didn't even consume the bulk of his power and also had a high Ki reserve to allow this task without fatigue.

          As for Cell, I mean, the time frames aren't even accurate to gauge for that to be downplayed comfortably. Vegeta and Trunks finished their year worth of training converted into a day training rather quickly. So who's to say we weren't just being taken in there perspective.

          Same with Majin Buu, of course he's not gonna get to where Goku and Vegeta are instantly cause we have to understand the situation through their viewpoints. The tournament of power in Super shows this really well in my opinion. Approximately 20+ minutes for us is just a 1 minutes to them. If we tried to watch the tournament of power without the aid of being in the character's perspective, the fight we wouldn't really be able to make out at all really.

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          • #10
            Originally posted by Solid Snake View Post

            The last part is false. Instant Transmission is useful because it doesn't consume a lot of Ki and get's to locations effectively. Using Ki to get to where you need or want to be isn't useful since you burn more Ki the more exertive the task you need the Ki for.

            Example:

            Goku trying to conserve Ki versus Vegeta during the Saiyan saga. Without Kaioken x3, Goku didn't have the Ki to harm Vegeta, who's Ki allowed all his stats to be higher, in addition of also being a great fighter on top of that.

            Goku flew half way across Namek, in just a split moment, literally seconds before Frieza was gonna kill Vegeta mind you. Went at least relativistic speeds since it didn't even consume the bulk of his power and also had a high Ki reserve to allow this task without fatigue.

            As for Cell, I mean, the time frames aren't even accurate to gauge for that to be downplayed comfortably. Vegeta and Trunks finished their year worth of training converted into a day training rather quickly. So who's to say we weren't just being taken in there perspective.

            Same with Majin Buu, of course he's not gonna get to where Goku and Vegeta are instantly cause we have to understand the situation through their viewpoints. The tournament of power in Super shows this really well in my opinion. Approximately 20+ minutes for us is just a 1 minutes to them. If we tried to watch the tournament of power without the aid of being in the character's perspective, the fight we wouldn't really be able to make out at all really.

            Gonna need some proof for that one, we have no idea how much Ki Instant Transmission consumes but it's pretty clear that basic flight consumes hardly any.
            I would think that travelling through time and space consumes a bit more than what is essentially a light walk to them, nobody who's flown a considerable distance has ever been shown to be massively drained by it to the point of being unable to fight or anything.
            So yeah again it would take them a fraction of a second to go literally anywhere on the planet, Instant Transmission would be absolutely useless for travelling within one planet and nobody would find it impressive at all other than for going elsewhere in the universe.

            Hasn't Goku flying over half the planet been disproven many times? Is there not a shot of him doing it in one panel, which clearly indicates it's nowhere near that distance at all?
            Unless we're going to enter the Flat Namek debate. Please no.

            There is literally nothing that suggests a day to them is like a second of real time or whatever.
            Come on.
            That makes absolutely no sense.
            That would require absolutely every character to be FTL, including regular people who make reactionary speeches and whatnot to events.
            To scale from Dragon Ball the whole Android and Cell saga would be taking like 10 minutes or something which is pure nonsense since we know multiple days pass and there's multiple scenes of regular people talking and reacting to events.
            There is no reasonable way you could claim that any time other than that everyone just enters some hyperspeed state, it just makes no sense.


            If this theory here had any weight what so ever then that would mean ANY time someone is stronger than another character, even by 0.5%, that they should be going hundreds of KM/h faster than them, which would make them pretty much unbeatable.

            Why is it so hard for people to accept that they just aren't that fast and that Dragon Ball in the early stages is just massively inconsistent? How can you tell me that makes less sense than the would-be reality I just explained.

            Comment


            • Elite Saiyan
              Elite Saiyan commented
              Editing a comment
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b7LlnRdT24

              This one you cant dismiss on it just being a "dub error" or throw away line.

              Piccolos blast takes 2 seconds to go from the earth to the moon. That is roughly how long it takes Light to go from the earth to the moon. Raditz dodged a similar beam.

              Also, as far as power levels go, yes even a .5% difference, can mean the difference between victory and defeat.

              If it makes little sense, well sorry, but it seems this is what Toriyama intended.

              I mean come on, Roshi with his 120 power level blew up the moon. It takes less energy to move light speed, than it does to blow up the moon.
              Last edited by Elite Saiyan; 07-04-2019, 06:41 AM.

          • #11
            juat to clarify

            when i meant the were faster than light i meant reaction speed and not actual travel speed

            Comment


            • #12
              Originally posted by Steve View Post


              Gonna need some proof for that one, we have no idea how much Ki Instant Transmission consumes but it's pretty clear that basic flight consumes hardly any.
              I would think that travelling through time and space consumes a bit more than what is essentially a light walk to them, nobody who's flown a considerable distance has ever been shown to be massively drained by it to the point of being unable to fight or anything.
              So yeah again it would take them a fraction of a second to go literally anywhere on the planet, Instant Transmission would be absolutely useless for travelling within one planet and nobody would find it impressive at all other than for going elsewhere in the universe.

              Hasn't Goku flying over half the planet been disproven many times? Is there not a shot of him doing it in one panel, which clearly indicates it's nowhere near that distance at all?
              Unless we're going to enter the Flat Namek debate. Please no.

              There is literally nothing that suggests a day to them is like a second of real time or whatever.
              Come on.
              That makes absolutely no sense.
              That would require absolutely every character to be FTL, including regular people who make reactionary speeches and whatnot to events.
              To scale from Dragon Ball the whole Android and Cell saga would be taking like 10 minutes or something which is pure nonsense since we know multiple days pass and there's multiple scenes of regular people talking and reacting to events.
              There is no reasonable way you could claim that any time other than that everyone just enters some hyperspeed state, it just makes no sense.


              If this theory here had any weight what so ever then that would mean ANY time someone is stronger than another character, even by 0.5%, that they should be going hundreds of KM/h faster than them, which would make them pretty much unbeatable.

              Why is it so hard for people to accept that they just aren't that fast and that Dragon Ball in the early stages is just massively inconsistent? How can you tell me that makes less sense than the would-be reality I just explained.
              There hasn't been an instance where Goku had utilized a lot of Ki to perform the Instant Transmission outside of using it with another technique that requires a lot of Ki. We know it don't use a lot since his fight with Moro shows that if you don't have the Ki to go Super Saiyan or even Kaioken, he can't do that.

              Goku literally spammed it in his fight against Copy-Vegeta and didn't nowhere near his full reserves. In his fight with Cell, he combined it with the Kamehameha and he was left hardly any Ki to "finish" Cell off.

              We don't see it often cause it's not practical. There's no need to use so much energy to fly to a destination that you can get there in faster than any jet or plane can take you.

              Porunga is a huge dragon and the character's perspective is greater since they're in the air to widen the horizon from their point of view so thinking the fight hasn't moved is ridiculous.

              You say thatbut its the case. Just because things take longer for us to see is because we have to see what's going on. If they fought like how the tournament of power suggests, we make out what happens, this is a fact.

              They react to events that's happened already not currently. Cell absorbed an entire town whilst Kami wad watching and by time Piccolo merged and ready to go was there there wasn't a soul. In order for Cell to absorb that many people in a short time he'd have to be moving pretty fast cause we know there's a speed cap he can suck in his victim's organic matter.

              All that said and done though, I don't personally agree nor disagree with them being light speed plus travel speed wise and casually. I'm just saying there is merit to prove that side of things.

              Me personally, I believe Gotenks feat is relativistic level though, and I do believe that Gotenks used a majority of his Ki to fly around the planet multiple time in a few seconds at best and a few minutes at worst. Everyone else that is greater than him is faster than that and by the time we get Whis, massively faster than light speed was achieved, travel wise. I personally also believe Super Saiyan Vegito and Super Buu (Gohan) absorbed are at least faster than light travel speed wise based off scaling from Gotenks.

              ​​​​​​​Combat and reaction though they are massively faster than light.

              Comment


              • #13
                Ok, to everyone who is interested, explain this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b7LlnRdT24

                Piccolos beam takes 2 seconds to go from the earth to the moon. Thats similar to how long it takes light to go from the earth to the moon.
                If Raditz dodged a beam similar to this, his speed has to be around light speed level, there is no other way.

                Comment


                • #14
                  The anime is an adaptation, not the main work, you're allowed to hold that to a higher phase than the actual work as I said, but you're not going to convince people that way when the anime also has Kid Buu stronger than Buuhan. In the manga it's an indeterminate amount of time. Even if we did just use that, it's nor like the moon in Dragon Ball works the same way, given Goku could transport the carrot gang there usng the power pole, could breath, and that the moon is much smaller, you can even see the curvature there.



                  This is not a normal moon, it is relativrly small and much closer to the Earth as a result. Even if it still takes two seconds, the moon is still much smaller and thus much closer. Hell I imagine I could argue the breathable atmosphere may imply it's within Earth's atmosphere, but that isn't a bridge I'll be crossing, for now it's unknown, but certainly much closer and much different (particularly smaller) than our moon. Everything has an explanation.

                  And if we use your motivated reasoning by the way, there is no combining evidence because everything is already inconsistent and everything keeps getting retconned, meaning no scaling from previous feats or weaker people. The only speed feat from Raditz is the bullet (and if that seems odd, I agree, Roshi did the same feat but better, and this basically nerfs everyone in Z if we use your system) If we do do that, then Gotenks and Dyspo have to be taken into consideration, as well as other means of explaining the inconsistencies, all of which seem satisfactory given you've yet to really address any explanation I've put forth and explain why it does not work.
                  Last edited by Tinny; 07-04-2019, 11:32 AM.

                  Signature and Avatar by NinjaSushi

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                  • Tinny
                    Tinny commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I'm not sure what you mean as contentious, I apologize if I came off as angry or such, but I simply find it puzzling why you keep insiting on such an obviously flawed interpretation, or at least it seems as such from me given you've been rather unable to really point out any flaws in the arguments, simply changing yours continually until you were more or less giving up on continuity.

                    I really don't see why we should 'agree to disagree' here? I mean beyond that we can agree to disagree on literally anything (like if I keep saying the Big Green dub is best, or that Piccolo is orange and not green).

                    You've even admitted your argument is full of holes, and my arguments have patched up every hole possible, from Goku dealing with solar flare, to Piccolo's Makankōsappō, and his blast at the moon. What in my argument fails to be compelling compared to your own, which you again, even admitted was full of inconsistencies?

                  • Elite Saiyan
                    Elite Saiyan commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Well, you have poked "possible holes" into my interpretation of events, but these are not confirmed. Maybe Goku didnt outrun Tien's solar flare, but maybe he did, the scene shown was left vague enough that either scenario could be possible. Maybe The moon is closer in Dragon ball, maybe its not, there is also not enough evidence to say either way.

                    Were arguing over vague information, because the creators and editors of Dragon Ball intentionally left these things vague enough to have flexibility in the future to change stuff.

                    However, id like to believe that the guys who can blow up planets early on, can move light speed, simply because it takes far less energy to move light speed, than it does to obliterate an entire planet. Having vegeta be able to one shot planet Arlia with a casual finger beam, should require far, far more energy than light speed movement would. I know you could say that parts filler..but Roshi blowing up the moon with a 139 power level proves the same point, and he did that in the Manga I think.
                    Last edited by Elite Saiyan; 08-04-2019, 04:25 AM.

                  • Tinny
                    Tinny commented
                    Editing a comment
                    This comment chain is long so I'm moving it to a quote
                    Last edited by Tinny; 08-04-2019, 08:14 PM.

                • #15
                  You seriously using a gag scene to downplay the Piccolo and moon feat? Well, if you're accepting that, then you have to accept the fact Goku can interact with manga panels, which gives him toon force abilities.

                  On to a serious note, Toriyama already confirmed that the moon is the same distance from the earth as our moon. So Piccolo destroying that with a casual Ki blast and Raditz dodged a super amplified one. But this is a reaction and combat speed feat.

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