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Nappa vs Hulk and Thor

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  • #16
    Pointer I'm having this exact same conversation with the exact same points with Solid Snake on this very page. I'd reccomend you read the posts after that.

    Solid, you are free to cite them, no one is physically stopping you or punishing you for it. Just don't expect people to be convinced when you use an adaptation of a work to talk about the original source. It's about as convincing as me using live action Aladdin as a source when discussing what Animated Jafar is capable of.

    And none of that applies to Nappa because they're all stronger than him by miles. You're still going backwards. What does Nappa or someone weaker than him do? If ki and physicals are not different in scale, then it'll be shown in the source material. What do you have to prove his striking force? We already agree that his beams will destroy the moon. Not theory or postulations or adaptations, the facts of the story. Jeeze, I mentioned there waas nothing to talk about, and this has gone really exactly the same as every other conversation on this has before. Frankly I think you'll have to accept you aren't going to convince me. As I said, your system doesn't seem to be able to tell the difference between a knife and hammer. I see no reason to consider it if it can't even acknowledge that.
    Last edited by Tinny; 14-03-2019, 03:10 AM.

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    • #17
      Tinny It's not my system, the series showcased and stated physicals, and Ki blasts, aren't different really. Doesn't matter if they're stronger:

      Broly and Gogeta, showed they can blast and punch through dimensions. Showing that blasts and physical attacks are near similar.

      If characters, can do a feat a with Ki blast the same is for their physical attack. I don't understand how you're not understanding something so simple and shown and implied.


      • #18
        If they aren't different, than someone, somewhere, will do something of equivalent strength. My problem is that you're making assumptions about what they're capable of, rather than just showing me what they have done. I generally prefer not to make assumptions when doing other versus. When I said there was nothing to talk about, it's because I knew it'd go the same.

        You want to assume feats by tracing a line of theory, most of which goes backwards from as recent as the DBS movie. This is a practice I fundamentally disagree with in other versus. If I wanted to make assumptions and theory, I'd skip the preamble of a versus match and just analyze the series in the first place, or hell if I just want to imagine a fight scene, I'll write it myself or RP it with someone else. When discussing who would win however, I take a textual approach and try to assume as little as possible. Are you seeing the fundamental disconnect that results in this same discussion happening over and over with nary a change?

        You're trying to make an informed assumption. I do not make these assumptions. Thinking about it as well, thinking on Whis a long while back, it feels more like you're trying to write a fanfiction about a fight than to see who wins. And that's fine, I do that all the time in role-playing a fight scene or... Well writing fanfiction.

        And again, just to sum up, this whole thing seems to come down to a disconnect, I do not make assumptions about what a character can or can't do. I don't use calcs either because of how size will often change panel to panel (I view it as more artistic frankly). They either do it or they don't. You on the other hand try to extrapolate abilities and statistics from previous information. Does this sound accurate as to why this disagreement has popped up for the billionth time? Least from my end it seems to explain just about every disagreement we have on other versus, from black suit MCU Spidy to here and back to the previous site.

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        • #19
          I don't see how you could consider physicals the same based on Gogeta or whoever when Super Buu was able to tear through dimensional walls by shouting.

          As far up as Gogeta physicals are obviously going to be boosted really high and it'd be kind of insane to say no Ki is involved in punches of that level, with so much powerful Ki flowing through their bodies it would most surely be noted if they had to for some reason remove it from their arm to perform that, making it a feat of pure strength.
          Peoples limbs obviously have Ki in them at all times but it stands to reason it'd have to be concentrated to be boosted to the level of an actual energy attack.

          If a single basic punch was as powerful as a KHH yet expends virtually no stamina then energy blasts are simply stupid because it's far easier to just land a universe molesting punch.

          There's no real way to tell but it'd make more sense if an energy attack is 100% what someone's Ki can do and then a punch uses at best 5% but even that is massively highballing considering the feats at hand. If Goku and Beerus were nearly breaking the universe fairly early on then I'm pretty sure Broly and Gogeta are probably like 100x stronger than them, so that shoe would fit easy.

          And then going backwards to Nappa it just means his punches are massively scaled down from what his energy can do at that point.

          Based on all the other feats at hand before and around his time I don't see him being that above Hulk if at all in terms of pure strength.
          I mean if nothing else Hulk done this:

          Obviously he didn't do any real damage but he knocked Surtur back which is pretty impressive and he was capable of destroying Asgard which is apparently a "planet" obviously it sure doesn't seem like it though.
          And then there's the shockwaves Hulk and the Hulkbuster made when they exchanged blows, I don't recall Nappa doing anything similar.

          Goku and Vegeta did but they were like four times or more powerful than him and there was a lot of energy flying around there constantly so hard to claim they're purely physical feats, especially from Goku.


          • #20
            Tinny That doesn't even work, all you're telling me is "if someone else did it, then it doesn't apply to whomever else".

            If someone is stronger than a person that can blow up a planet, they can obviously hit as hard as that force. The Broly movie proves this since it doesn't show Ki and physicals to be different, if you need to be reminded I suggest you rewatch the fight once more.

            If they're doing the same, then up scales or down scales, it still applies. Jiren and Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku are above Broly's power but they never destroyed a dimension with a Ki nor physical attack, does that mean they can't do it via scaling? Gotenks and Super Buu both can open up holes in dimensions with Vice Shouts, does that mean Ultimate Gohan, Vegito can't do it? Piccolo busted the moon in BoZ, does that mean Goku and Raditz can't?

            Your logic would basically mean no one of similar powers can't do the same feats no matter what level they're at, which is not the case.

            I mean if you don't agree then you have to disprove it don't work that way, I have sources I can post that show my case but you're just claiming "this can't work".

            Broly and Gogeta showed that they're not different. Prove this wrong if you can. Disprove they don't scale up or down.


            • #21
              Nappa can't break through dimensions. Proof this doesn't work. Scaling to Nappa by using stronger characters (like for example the literal strongest characters in the story bar Whis and maybe the GoDs) doesn't work.
              Last edited by Tinny; 14-03-2019, 06:50 PM.

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              • #22
                No one is saying Nappa can break through dimensions. I'm saying since stronger characters can do the same fears, with Ki or physically, why can't a weaker or stronger character do less or more repsectively?


                • #23
                  You were arguing Nappa can destroy the moon with his fists because Broly can break through the dimension with his attacks. What response did you expect when trying to explain what Nappa can do using Broly? Broly is so much more powerful than Nappa in every respect as to use him as a comparison to Nappa is ridiculous. We scale by using weaker character's feats to explain what a stronger character can do, I have honestly no idea what you are even saying at this point. Are you saying they scale up and down or not?
                  Last edited by Tinny; 14-03-2019, 07:35 PM.

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                  • #24
                    I think scaling with the stronger characters actually works in favour of Nappa being weaker here really.

                    I mean think about it, what's he again, between 6000-9000PL at most? Something like that. I'm sure there are some insane calcs out there but I'm sure Gogeta is like 27074247350247x more powerful than him by this point given that by the Cell arc they were at like 250 mil+, which is like extremely roughly 40,000 times stronger than Nappa.
                    Random ass number but if Gogeta is going to be 999,999,999,999x stronger than Nappa that would probably scale down to his punches being way less effective than you'd hope here.

                    But anyway, what little information we have on physical strength in the series still brings us along to Goku's 40 tons feat, given that he was flying he was obviously using Ki there and 40 tons was a struggle without Super Saiyan.
                    That's basically the only well defined strength feat we have but even then we don't know technically how heavy those weights were but it'd be ludicrous to say they weighed millions and millions of tons.

                    Even if they were 40,000 tons collectively Goku struggling to lift them while using his Ki just reflects badly on how well Nappa would do with his measly level of strength by comparison.


                    • #25
                      Tinny I'm not talking about necessarily Nappa can destroy the whole moon, but attack on that level with his fist. We see and example of this possibly being a given fact in the english dub of Goku vs Beerus in Super (showing they are capable of attacking with the same potency or higher), in the original Goku vs Frieza fight on Namek (Goku being able to spill blood from a guy who resisted death from a planetary explosion, which was none Ki related and him having virtually no Ki remaining), and Gogeta and Broly both showcasing Ki and physical attacks on a similar level.

                      All this information implies that they can hit others with Ki and punches of the same potency. And we know they use Ki blasts to attack cause it has better range and controllability since it's more flexible to use in combat (Goku even uses an example of this on Broly, restraining him with his Ki as a Super Saiyan God or if you wanna go to Z, using their Ki to repel other Ki attacks and/or beings), and it can be concentrated to a single point and from there can be used to attack with even greater potency then the user can normally generate on his/her own.


                      • #26
                        And again, just to sum up, this whole thing seems to come down to a disconnect, I do not make assumptions about what a character can or can't do. I don't use calcs either because of how size will often change panel to panel (I view it as more artistic frankly). They either do it or they don't. You on the other hand try to extrapolate abilities and statistics from previous information. Does this sound accurate as to why this disagreement has popped up for the billionth time? Least from my end it seems to explain just about every disagreement we have on other versus, from black suit MCU Spidy to here and back to the previous site.
                        This whole thing seems to go back to this. You make the assumptions, I don't. I limit my scope as small as possible. I'm much more comfortable making the connection and often outright stretches and ideas as a writer, a while back I portrayed Phos from Houseki no Kuni in such a way that Phos can't be affected by soul attacks, since a soul is necessarily something apart from the physical form, whereas Phos' mind is entirely physical, and very explicitly as well given her memories are lost when she loses body parts. This is not a claim that I would be comfortable making in Other Versus. Other versus has no narrative to serve, it's a simple question of who would win given their personality and abilities.

                        If you're wondering why I didn't even directly address your argument, its because I don't believe we're disagreeing about what someone is doing, I think we're in disagreement about how we fundamentally approach these questions. If you're gonna convince me otherwise, it's going to have to be in the fundamental way I view all fiction in other versus, not just Dragon Ball. You are making assumptions and drawing extended conclusions from information, filling in blanks (even using dub lines to do so). Again, this is not something I'm comfortable doing with characters in other versus. I try to keep personal bias and personal interpretation out as much as I can, keeping as closely to the source material (this is also why the respect threads I would make are basically a catalog of literally everything they've ever done).

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                        • #27
                          The information I provided and can show proves that they're the same. It doesn't matter if Broly and Gogeta did the feat, that's not what's important. That way the movie showed it was that Ki attacks and physical attacks are in the same lane for the most part.

                          So if Ki can break through a dimension, and do the same physically, anything lower and higher scales the same in attack potency.

                          God Destruction + Ki and physical = at least Dimensional level

                          Super Saiyan 2 + Ki and physical = Solar System level

                          Super Saiyan + Ki and physical = Large Planet level, to Small Star level

                          Low Class Saiyan + Ki and physical = Moon level

                          This is how it is shown and what it proves.


                          • #28
                            Did you even read what I wrote? Because from what I'm reading your didn't even glance at my post before responding, I'm which case I may as well talk to a wall. That was not meant to convince you, that was to inform you of why neither can convince the other (certainly not within the limited framework of just talking about dragon ball). Though again, you're clearly not even glancing at my posts at this point, so I'll just let Steve respond if he wishes, though least as I recall you never responded to him.
                            Last edited by Tinny; 17-03-2019, 04:06 PM.

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                            • #29
                              I read what you said, but if I'm showing you the proof for the claim and you still nitpicking what you want to allow, then I may as well stop responding to you too.

                              In the past, you be like "no one in Dragon Ball hasn't shown physicals being as powerful as their blasts" and "they're more vulnerable to physical than Ki blasts" (which was already disproven with way older material even before Super to be honest).

                              Now, you have that evidence, clear and cut, in the Super: Broly movie and you're purposely trying to make it a feat exclusive to just them. If that's the case, why even go through all those years claiming if you get this feat, you'll admit it? I just don't understand what you more that you need to be convinced.

                              Question: How strong are Dragon Ball characters?

                              Akira Toriyama: Well, Ki has allowed them to do things well beyond their peak, physically. With Ki, they're capable of challenging aliens, artificial lifeforms etc, whom all possess immense power.

                              Question: But how strong are they?

                              Akira Toriyama: Really really strong (laughs).