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Saiyans vs Freeza

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  • Saiyans vs Freeza

    123rd day of quarantine: Time for the Freeza thread.

    So we're all in agreement that during the Majin Boo arc, the "base" (untransformed) Saiyans were far stronger than Namek-era Freeza, right? Like, Shin said he could defeat enemies like Freeza in a single strike and yet was in complete awe of the base Saiyans' power. Like he was witnessing the second coming of Christ or something. Further evidence can be found in the Mighty Mask vs #18 fight.

    All of that stuff about Battle of Gods and Super is non-canon so we can just sort of ignore it.

    I really just wanted to clear this up. We all agree that Boo-era base Saiyans >> Namek-era Freeza, right? And on that note, we all agree that base Gotenks (post-Room of Spirit and Time) > Super Gotenks (pre-Room of Spirit and Time) > Super Saiyan 3 Goku, correct?

  • #2
    I don't agree with Base Saiyans > Frieza

    Also idk about the Gotenks one. Yeah I agree with it now

    Comment


    • #3
      Awe? I wouldn't say Shin was astonished by the Saiyans' base power - more like surprised at the effectiveness of how they were able to dispense with Babidi's warriors in spite of their acclaim. Remember that Babidi is supposed to be recruiting only the strongest throughout the universe and they're completely unsensable for the group. It doesn't help that Shin is an overly cautious individual with a sordid history involving Babidi who probably does suffer from PTSD in some capacity.

      Concerning Gotenks, while I like to think it's possible he may have surpassed his previous SSJ self in base you also have to take into account the implications of Goten and Trunks individually having grown 50 times stronger as a result. If that were the case then they should have eclipsed SSJ3 Goku easily.

      I do believe Base Goku could overtake Freeza using Kaioken. Any of the other Base Saiyans? Not really, in my opinion.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Topographic Oceans View Post
        123rd day of quarantine: Time for the Freeza thread.

        So we're all in agreement that during the Majin Boo arc, the "base" (untransformed) Saiyans were far stronger than Namek-era Freeza, right? Like, Shin said he could defeat enemies like Freeza in a single strike and yet was in complete awe of the base Saiyans' power. Like he was witnessing the second coming of Christ or something. Further evidence can be found in the Mighty Mask vs #18 fight.

        All of that stuff about Battle of Gods and Super is non-canon so we can just sort of ignore it.

        I really just wanted to clear this up. We all agree that Boo-era base Saiyans >> Namek-era Freeza, right? And on that note, we all agree that base Gotenks (post-Room of Spirit and Time) > Super Gotenks (pre-Room of Spirit and Time) > Super Saiyan 3 Goku, correct?
        Nope, we're not. The base saiyans had a limit in their power that couldn't be surpassed, that was clearly established in the Cell saga and also confirmed in the Bu saga when the old KaiohShin performed the ritual on Gohan.

        Freeza was 40 times as strong as Goku's base power in Namek, and he was already very close to the limit of his base state (that's why he turned into SSJ when he had the rage boost, unlike Gohan).
        Vegeta was always much stronger, but he reached the limit of his base state prior to the androids saga (his whole SSJ transformation wouldn't have happened without him hitting that wall), and never in the manga their power in their base forms is stated or shown to increase after that: all the improvements come from having better and more mastered SSJ forms.

        Regarding your Shin's quote, Shin was clearly retconned. The Shin that said that had enough power to overcome a weak SSJ2 Gohan that would still be above Freeza in power and Goku, just by touching him, said he would be a formidable adversary.
        Both Gohan and him got completely rewritten as characters when they reached the Babidi spaceship, Gohan losing his SSJ2 as a result of not having trained and Shin becoming a weak-ass character.

        In the manga, Freeza was much more powerful than any untrained SSJ (he was at FP SSJ levels of power, as shown by Cell) and comparable to FP SSJ Goku in the Bu saga in terms of power, which was already an improvement over his Cell games FP SSJ form that was still a bit green as proved by both Gohan and Cell.

        Regards!
        Last edited by scouterSSJ; 17-04-2020, 09:20 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Thiln View Post
          Awe? I wouldn't say Shin was astonished by the Saiyans' base power - more like surprised at the effectiveness of how they were able to dispense with Babidi's warriors in spite of their acclaim.
          I admit I was being somewhat hyperbolic for comical effect. Some might even say I wasn't being 100% serious in my post and that this thread was deliberately inflammatory.

          (Still though, I think it's fairly evident in the manga that the base Saiyans are indeed stronger than Freeza. That only changes if you bring Battle of Gods and Super into account. As far as the manga's concerned, the Saiyans circa Boo arc would be easily able to take on an enemy like Freeza without transforming. In BoG/Super, a retcon takes place and that's no longer the case. It's the type of contradiction one expects from heavily serialized fiction and ultimately doesn't really matter unless you care about the minutiae of power-scaling. One can always come up with rationales and headcanons that sorta make sense and make everything fit together.)
          Last edited by Topographic Oceans; 17-04-2020, 08:28 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Topographic Oceans View Post
            I admit I was being somewhat hyperbolic for comical effect. Some might even say I wasn't being 100% serious in my post and that this thread was deliberately inflammatory.

            (Still though, I think it's fairly evident in the manga that the base Saiyans are indeed stronger than Freeza. That only changes if you bring Battle of Gods and Super into account. As far as the manga's concerned, the Saiyans circa Boo arc would be easily able to take on an enemy like Freeza without transforming. In BoG/Super, a retcon takes place and that's no longer the case. It's the type of contradiction one expects from heavily serialized fiction and ultimately doesn't really matter unless you care about the minutiae of power-scaling. One can always come up with rationales and headcanons that sorta make sense and make everything fit together.)
            There's not a single feat by any base saiyan in the Bu saga that could put them above Freeza. The manga limited the base state just after the Namek saga, and none of the base saiyans could compare to Freeza in power then (and never, as a consecuence of having reached his base state limit).

            A retcon happens only when the fiction contradicts itself, and Freeza being above the base saiyans in the manga was never contradicted even once.

            Regards!

            Comment


            • StrenuousSpider
              StrenuousSpider commented
              Editing a comment
              Base vegeta slapped ssj3 gotenks. This whole base sayains can't get any stronger has been proven and shown false numerous times.

              Anyway to the OP. Yes the base sayains would beat freiza pretty easily. If Shin can beat freiza basically effortlessly and Shin admits to not being able to defeat goku if they fought(Implied gokus base) shin was indeed in awe of the base sayains powers. He thought the would have needed to team up to beat babidis men, which was obviously not the case. At nearly every turn he was surprised and shocked at their power.
              And while super is canon, I ignore many things it's done, those being beerus statement about the best goku could do with ssj is freiza, the laser cheap shot and everushing it implies, bullet bruising goku, and goku needing a suit for being in the earth's core. As alot of these can be proven as PIS or downright wrong with things from dragonball, from Z, to even super itself down to even the arc it's stated in.
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