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Namek Saga Goku vs Android 19

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  • Namek Saga Goku vs Android 19

    I wonder how Goku (in both base and SSJ) would fare against the Androids in Frieza wasn't a thing?

  • #2
    My knowledge is rusty, but generally...

    3 Years Training SSJ Goku>Yardrat SSJ Goku>=Future Trunks>Mecha Freeza~Namek SSJ Goku>100% Freeza

    Android 19 didn't get immediately stomped by 3 Years Training SSJ Goku, so we have to assume at the very least they're within the ballpark of one another. Considering that 3 years training goku was also noticeably stronger than yardratian Goku, who was on a similar level if not stronger than Future Trunks, who in turn diced Mecha Freeza, who was stated to have been stronger than his 100% self...

    Android 19 would probably eat Namek SSJ Goku for breakfast.

    Comment


    • #3
      19 stomps. Trunks took out Mecha-Frieza (who was even stronger than when he was on Namek) and King Kold with minimal effort using his sword, whereas Goku from Yardrat was able to block the samesword with just his finger. On top of that, he would spend a further 3 years preparing for the Androids. Given these gaps in power, Namek-arc Goku, who was on par with Frieza and probably below Mecha-Frieza, has no chance against Android 19.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by G.G. View Post
        I wonder how Goku (in both base and SSJ) would fare against the Androids in Frieza wasn't a thing?
        Namek saga Goku SSJ stomps, and it's not even close.
        But if Freezer hadn't been a thing, then we would have no SSJ Goku to fight him.
        Even then, KKx10 Goku would be more than enough to trounce both A19 and A20.

        3 Years Training SSJ Goku>Yardrat SSJ Goku>=Future Trunks>Mecha Freeza~Namek SSJ Goku>100% Freeza
        In the fight against the Androids, Goku is already affected by the heart disease before starting the fight.
        Piccolo clearly states that Goku's power is not what should be expected from a SSJ, but much lower, which means that 3 Years Training SSJ Goku was <<<<< Yadrad SSJ Goku.
        Yadrad SSJ Goku and Namek SSJ Goku were stated to have the same power (Goku admits he didn't have time to train besides learning the instant transmision and to transform at will).

        Finally, Namek SSJ Goku equal to 100% Freezer (Freezer lost because of stamina issues, not strength)... after the Genkidama. His power as an untrained SSJ (pre-RoSAT) was comparable to that of the KKx10.

        With all this on mind, neither 19 nor 20 would be unbeateable for Goku if we assume he reached the same levels of strength he had in Namek when he started to fight Freezer.


        19 stomps. Trunks took out Mecha-Frieza (who was even stronger than when he was on Namek) and King Kold with minimal effort using his sword
        That's because the anime fucked-up those scenes badly, with filler that contradicted the statements made in the manga.
        In the manga it's made pretty clear by it's performance and Cold's dialogue that Mecha is much, much weaker than in Namek, and that Trunks has a power comparable to that of Goku back then (and we all saw that he was inferior to Freezer).


        Regards.
        Last edited by scouterSSJ; 29-01-2020, 12:09 PM.

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        • #5
          I think #19 would win this. Goku was already beginning to reel from the effects of the virus when they touched down on the ground but I doubt it was severe enough to substantially reduce his power; not until after he had already begun fighting the android and exerted himself with the transformation plus the Kamehameha (Vegeta does acknowledge that transforming exacerbated it). Plus, surely Tien would have also made the observation of Goku's Super Saiyan form being unimpressively weaker or at best comparable to his state 3 years ago if it were the case.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Thiln View Post
            I think #19 would win this. Goku was already beginning to reel from the effects of the virus when they touched down on the ground but I doubt it was severe enough to substantially reduce his power; not until after he had already begun fighting the android and exerted himself with the transformation plus the Kamehameha (Vegeta does acknowledge that transforming exacerbated it). Plus, surely Tien would have also made the observation of Goku's Super Saiyan form being unimpressively weaker or at best comparable to his state 3 years ago if it were the case.
            It's not Tien but Piccolo who is constantly telling us that Goku's power is much, much below from what should be expected "from a SSJ".
            Piccolo trained with Goku during the 3 year gap, and we know any power-up Goku may had experienced during that training was minimal.
            Also, the first sign of Goku not being ok is that he is already sweating after flying from the south city to the desert where they fought the androids, which means that he already started the fight much weaker than he normally would.

            Regards!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by scouterSSJ View Post
              It's not Tien but Piccolo who is constantly telling us that Goku's power is much, much below from what should be expected "from a SSJ".
              Piccolo trained with Goku during the 3 year gap, and we know any power-up Goku may had experienced during that training was minimal.
              Also, the first sign of Goku not being ok is that he is already sweating after flying from the south city to the desert where they fought the androids, which means that he already started the fight much weaker than he normally would.

              Regards!
              Piccolo's exact word to describe Goku's condition was "miserable". It's not very specific, though. As a comparative example, both Piccolo and Goku were reduced to a state of condition where they could barely stand against one another at the closing of the 23rd tournament. Goku himself had a perforated lung and was bleeding severely to the point of his vision blurring as Piccolo deduced. In spite of those circumstances, both fighters could still very much intimidate the freshly unweathered human fighters into submission despite the gap probably being less than half of Piccolo's total strength at the time (if only for Tien in this case).

              I think Goku had raised his power by a moderate amount but nothing all too substantial. It would have been enough to almost double his strength, in my opinion. His exhaustion in the fight itself didn't really become noticeable until after the first onslaught against #19 just before his Kamehameha.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Thiln View Post

                Piccolo's exact word to describe Goku's condition was "miserable". It's not very specific, though. As a comparative example, both Piccolo and Goku were reduced to a state of condition where they could barely stand against one another at the closing of the 23rd tournament. Goku himself had a perforated lung and was bleeding severely to the point of his vision blurring as Piccolo deduced. In spite of those circumstances, both fighters could still very much intimidate the freshly unweathered human fighters into submission despite the gap probably being less than half of Piccolo's total strength at the time (if only for Tien in this case).

                I think Goku had raised his power by a moderate amount but nothing all too substantial. It would have been enough to almost double his strength, in my opinion. His exhaustion in the fight itself didn't really become noticeable until after the first onslaught against #19 just before his Kamehameha.
                A part from the 'miserable' quote, un chapter 341 he also states:
                'After turning into a SSJ, Goku's power should be much higher than that'

                Which means that Goku's power never reached the power a SSJ should have during his fight vs A19.

                ​​​​​​Regarding Goku's power up during the 3 years of training (had he not gotten ill), considering Piccolo's claims about Vegeta I don't think Goku ever managed to surpass him, and taking Trunks' performance as a reference (since his power as a SSJ was equal to that of SSJ Yadrat/Namek Goku), that would be a 15-20% power up at best.

                The approximate power list I have on mind for this saga in the manga would be:
                SSJ Vegeta 3.150.000
                SSJ Trunks 2.850.000
                Piccolo 2.850.000
                A20 2.600.000
                Ill SSJ Goku (peak) 2.300.000
                A19 2.100.000

                ​​​​​​Vegeta is clearly the strongest, Piccolo and Trunks have more or less the same power level, A20 is stronger than A19 and I would also say ill SSJ Goku, that even if at the start of the fight he still conserves most of his power (but at the same time the difference with SSJ Trunks had to be considerable), he's already far weaker than his usual SSJ ever was.

                Regards!
                Last edited by scouterSSJ; 07-02-2020, 08:47 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Android 19 should win, although I tend to have 19 not too far from Namek Saga SSJ Goku these days in order to facilitate a hefty absorption boost from the Kamehameha. With 19's inability to feel pain and absorption technique, Goku likely wouldn't last too long if even a much stronger version of Goku couldn't win.

                  SSJ Goku (Namek) =< Mecha Freeza < Android 19 << SSJ Trunks (vs Mecha Freeza) < Android 19 (post-KHH absorption)

                  In terms of numbers, something like:

                  SSJ Goku (Namek) - 150
                  Mecha Freeza - 155 (could be 160 but I'm lowballing here)
                  Android 19 - 170
                  SSJ Trunks (vs Freeza) - 200
                  Android 19 (post-KHH) - 225

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pyrus View Post
                    Android 19 should win, although I tend to have 19 not too far from Namek Saga SSJ Goku these days in order to facilitate a hefty absorption boost from the Kamehameha. With 19's inability to feel pain and absorption technique, Goku likely wouldn't last too long if even a much stronger version of Goku couldn't win.

                    SSJ Goku (Namek) =< Mecha Freeza < Android 19 << SSJ Trunks (vs Mecha Freeza) < Android 19 (post-KHH absorption)

                    In terms of numbers, something like:

                    SSJ Goku (Namek) - 150
                    Mecha Freeza - 155 (could be 160 but I'm lowballing here)
                    Android 19 - 170
                    SSJ Trunks (vs Freeza) - 200
                    Android 19 (post-KHH) - 225
                    I don't quite agree with those numbers.

                    Mecha Freezer being above SSJ Goku would put Cold at an stratosferic level (since his power in his 2nd form is comparable to Mecha Freezer's power). That would make Cold much, much stronger than his son, which would contradict both Freezer and Cold's characters (they always speak as if Freezer was the strongest of the bunch).

                    At the same time, Trunks being so strong would contradict Yadrat Goku (who said that couldn't train his SSJ beyond learning to transform at will and had the same strength than in Namek) and also Piccolo's claims on ill SSJ Goku being much weaker than a SSJ should be (and Piccolo trained with Goku for the whole 3 years, so he knows the strength of a SSJ pretty well).

                    Regards!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by scouterSSJ View Post
                      I don't quite agree with those numbers.

                      Mecha Freezer being above SSJ Goku would put Cold at an stratosferic level (since his power in his 2nd form is comparable to Mecha Freezer's power). That would make Cold much, much stronger than his son, which would contradict both Freezer and Cold's characters (they always speak as if Freezer was the strongest of the bunch).

                      At the same time, Trunks being so strong would contradict Yadrat Goku (who said that couldn't train his SSJ beyond learning to transform at will and had the same strength than in Namek) and also Piccolo's claims on ill SSJ Goku being much weaker than a SSJ should be (and Piccolo trained with Goku for the whole 3 years, so he knows the strength of a SSJ pretty well).

                      Regards!
                      There is no indication that Cold can transform, that he gains the same boosts from transformations as Freeza does, or even that he's in his second form at all. It's entirely possible that Freeza's race just develops more elaborate horns as they mature, like an old stag having a huge rack of antlers. Freeza in any case was fairly sure he could take on Goku in a rematch, which would be insane if he had actually gotten weaker

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lazerbem View Post

                        There is no indication that Cold can transform, that he gains the same boosts from transformations as Freeza does, or even that he's in his second form at all. It's entirely possible that Freeza's race just develops more elaborate horns as they mature, like an old stag having a huge rack of antlers. Freeza in any case was fairly sure he could take on Goku in a rematch, which would be insane if he had actually gotten weaker
                        The indication is Cold himself appearing in "second" form. Freezer's race true form is the last one we saw from Freezer, not the first one, which means that Cold already appeared transformed.
                        Furthermore, Freezer's race transformations weren't something they had to train in order to achieve, they were more like transforming into an Oozaru for a Saiyan (any saiyan with a tail and a full moon could do it) than transforming into a SSJ (a trasnformation that couldn't be achieved by regular saiyans without achieving some obscure pre-requisites like having a rage boost on top of being at the limit of their base state).
                        If Cold wouldn't have been able to transform then Toriyama would've told us, but since he didn't, we have to asume that he could (otherwise is very bad writting on Toriyama's part).

                        Regarding Freezer being confident, that's because he's not aware of his real condition. There was no one in his whole army able to sense and measure Kis, and the most advanced scouters that we know exploded with powers under 500.000. The only way for Freezer to know his power for sure would've been to train and measure it himself (by sparring with his father for example) but we know that Freezer never did that.
                        He probably felt healed, and considering he didn't increase his power any more when fighting Trunks he probably checked if he could fight at his maximum (and discovered he didn't get tired for doing that), which made him confident.

                        But his power was below what he showed in Namek and he didn't increase it to fight Trunks (Gohan thought Freezer was containing himself -and not just a bit, but A LOT- and Freezer's biggest power showdown in Namek was his 50% when he completely overpowered KKx10 Goku), his father in 2nd form was at the same level as him, and the biggest hint of them all: A badly injured Freezer managed to match SSJ Goku in Namek, and now a healed, supposedly stronger Freezer loses to Trunks SSJ that had the same power as him?

                        A character being wrong about the power he has (because he hasn't tested it after it had suddenly changed -or he has never tested it at all-) happens a lot in the series (Vegeta in a lot of occasions, Cell, Freezer and even Goku).

                        Regards!
                        Last edited by scouterSSJ; 17-02-2020, 01:45 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by scouterSSJ View Post

                          The indication is Cold himself appearing in "second" form. Freezer's race true form is the last one we saw from Freezer, not the first one, which means that Cold already appeared transformed.
                          Furthermore, Freezer's race transformations weren't something they had to train in order to achieve, they were more like transforming into an Oozaru for a Saiyan (any saiyan with a tail and a full moon could do it) than transforming into a SSJ (a trasnformation that couldn't be achieved by regular saiyans without achieving some obscure pre-requisites like having a rage boost on top of being at the limit of their base state).
                          If Cold wouldn't have been able to transform then Toriyama would've told us, but since he didn't, we have to asume that he could (otherwise is very bad writting on Toriyama's part).

                          Regarding Freezer being confident, that's because he's not aware of his real condition. There was no one in his whole army able to sense and measure Kis, and the most advanced scouters that we know exploded with powers under 500.000. The only way for Freezer to know his power for sure would've been to train and measure it himself (by sparring with his father for example) but we know that Freezer never did that.
                          He probably felt healed, and considering he didn't increase his power any more when fighting Trunks he probably checked if he could fight at his maximum (and discovered he didn't get tired for doing that), which made him confident.

                          But his power was below what he showed in Namek and he didn't increase it to fight Trunks (Gohan thought Freezer was containing himself -and not just a bit, but A LOT- and Freezer's biggest power showdown in Namek was his 50% when he completely overpowered KKx10 Goku), his father in 2nd form was at the same level as him, and the biggest hint of them all: A badly injured Freezer managed to match SSJ Goku in Namek, and now a healed, supposedly stronger Freezer loses to Trunks SSJ that had the same power as him?

                          A character being wrong about the power he has (because he hasn't tested it after it had suddenly changed -or he has never tested it at all-) happens a lot in the series (Vegeta in a lot of occasions, Cell, Freezer and even Goku).

                          Regards!
                          And yet nothing says Cold showed up in his second form. The features it has are not consistent with ANY form of Freeza's. It has the horns, but the chest is bare(you can see his pecs under his chest armor and it doesn't have the coating that Freeza's second form has). Toriyama isn't that invested in biological accuracy, he just picked out a look for Freeza's dad which is Freeza but bigger to represent his age(ala Moori). You're also incorrect on the nature of Freeza's transformations, he explicitly says that they're to control his immense power. Given that it's not like everyone in his race is as strong, it's clear they're more individual and catered to the power of the individual. I imagine many don't even need it. Cold being unable to transform is stated by the fact that no one says he CAN transform. Toriyama doesn't have to say something out loud which is the default.

                          One doesn't need to measure kis to understand power levels, see Goku ballparking the Majins. Freeza would know if he was moving slower pretty darn well, he knows himself. He didn't increase his power against Trunks because he flipped out and thought his one blast would kill him. It was a reaction move, like Death Beaming SSJ Goku in a panic. It's just that Trunks didn't give him time to power up beyond his freak-out reaction.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lazerbem View Post
                            And yet nothing says Cold showed up in his second form. The features it has are not consistent with ANY form of Freeza's. It has the horns, but the chest is bare(you can see his pecs under his chest armor and it doesn't have the coating that Freeza's second form has). Toriyama isn't that invested in biological accuracy, he just picked out a look for Freeza's dad which is Freeza but bigger to represent his age(ala Moori).
                            I think you're contradicting yourself here.
                            On one hand you argue that some little details differentiating Cold from Freezer in his 2nd form invalidate the idea of Cold being in 2nd form, but at the same time you also argue that Toriyama wasn't very invested in biological accuracy (which is something I agree) to argue why Cold had no more forms even when his son had them.

                            Frost (DBSuper, I know, but the manga is supervised by Toriyama) has the same forms, Kuriza (Neko Majin, designed by Toriyama hismelf) also had the same forms, and in every single instance it's stated that their true form is the last one. Heck, Goku even suspects Frost is hidding him a transformation when Frost uses his alien-like form, and he isn't even from the same universe as Freezer!


                            Originally posted by lazerbem
                            You're also incorrect on the nature of Freeza's transformations, he explicitly says that they're to control his immense power. Given that it's not like everyone in his race is as strong, it's clear they're more individual and catered to the power of the individual. I imagine many don't even need it.
                            For every single Freezer's race member designed by Toriama this stands true even if they're not as strong as Freezer. Cold for example wasn't as strong, and his 2nd form was enough for him to control his power (or maybe he had better control of his energy, like we see on Freezer in DBS where he can maintain his true form without problems),

                            Originally posted by lazerbem
                            Cold being unable to transform is stated by the fact that no one says he CAN transform. Toriyama doesn't have to say something out loud which is the default.
                            This is not how it works when describing characters in a literary work.
                            You don't need every single characteristic of every single character being confirmed every time.
                            When Freezer was introduced we learned about him, so when his father is introduced everything about his son except for the differences that are explicitly stated remains true.
                            Cold can transform PRECISELY because no one says he can't and every other single member of his race can transform. Why would Cold be the exception to Freezer, Kuriza and Frost (all those characters were designed by Toriyama himself)?

                            I'll put you an (exaggerated) example: we can't assume that Mutenroshi is a transexual woman who got operated when she was young just because Toriyama doesn't tell us this wasn't the case.


                            Originally posted by lazerbem
                            One doesn't need to measure kis to understand power levels, see Goku ballparking the Majins. Freeza would know if he was moving slower pretty darn well, he knows himself.
                            How could he know this? In DB everything goes in relation to your power level, it's not as if 10.000.000 Freezer and 1.000.000 Freezer would have the same sense of speed while moving at the same velocity.
                            The only way to measure this would be to run a fixed distance while measuring how long it takes to cover it, something that would be out of character for Freezer.

                            The most plausible tests would've been to fight with his father, but it seems obvious by how they speak that they didn't do this.

                            Originally posted by lazerbem
                            He didn't increase his power against Trunks because he flipped out and thought his one blast would kill him.
                            A beam fired with just a fraction of his power while he was terrorized by the mere presence of Trunks?
                            Freezer wasn't confident at all once he saw Trunks transforming into a SSJ, him attacking with a fraction of his power (because his power was much lower than in Namek as explained by Gohan himself) contradicts Freezer's reaction in the manga.

                            Originally posted by lazerbem
                            It was a reaction move, like Death Beaming SSJ Goku in a panic.
                            ??
                            The deathbeaming thing wasn't a panic reaction, Freezer was confident that he could kill SSJ Goku with that and surprised when he wasn't able to do it.
                            It was a miscalculation on his part (he was still in disbelief that the SSJ could be that strong and trying to avoid fighting with all his power) but he was not the terrorized freezer we saw in front of Trunks. Freezer was far more confident in himself when he used the 100% of his power in Namek than when Trunks transformed into a SSJ, and yet he still used the 100% of his power in Namek and only used a fraction of his power to attack Trunks?

                            Originally posted by lazerbem
                            It's just that Trunks didn't give him time to power up beyond his freak-out reaction.
                            But Freezer freaking out with just a fraction of his power is where I don't agree. If you panic, you don't react with a small attack while containing most of your power.

                            Regards!
                            Last edited by scouterSSJ; 27-02-2020, 02:36 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              King colds power irrelevant either way even if he could transform.this is based on goku's character, the guy who wants to test his limits against strong opponents.

                              I wouldn't. Find it too unlikely if in the future timeline, future goku would let king cold transform(if he could), and as we know in that unaltered future,goku took care of both cold and frieza.knowing goku he would let Cold transform and let them 2v1 him

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