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Dragon Ball Super: Broly

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Tinny View Post
    And while we're at it, Broly is honestly really nice here, and I actually like him as a character. Before he was basically a big lug, but now after this, I feel like I'm actually interested in following his journey, in seeing what he becomes (or hell maybe writing it myself if he disappears from DBS after this). We have Freeza clearly laying down plans to end the saiyans, and still having his sights set on Broly, and honestly it's the first time I'm actually kinda curious about what happens in DBS. If this is a sign of things to come, then I can safety say that DBS might actually get to be good.

    Oh I know! I never thought that I would actually like Broly as a character. If you would have told me 5 years ago that I would someday really enjoy Broly as a character, I would have just laughed. He's actually a likable character that you care about and want to see more of him. By the end of the movie, I'm not tired of seeing him or even satisfied with what I've seen of him, I was so extremely hungry for more of this character and his interactions with Chelai.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by PF18 View Post


      Oh I know! I never thought that I would actually like Broly as a character. If you would have told me 5 years ago that I would someday really enjoy Broly as a character, I would have just laughed. He's actually a likable character that you care about and want to see more of him. By the end of the movie, I'm not tired of seeing him or even satisfied with what I've seen of him, I was so extremely hungry for more of this character and his interactions with Chelai.
      i actually dont really want to see him again, or at least not much. i like him as a character (i didnt care much for the original broly, and kefla was the worst. i hope they will make her non-canon somehow) but he is just too powerful. a character than can overpower everyone except gogeta and the angels is just too much for me. i like godly-powered characters, i just dont like them integrated too much into the story.
      Last edited by highwaysaiyan; 20-01-2019, 11:10 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by highwaysaiyan View Post

        i actually dont really want to see him again, or at least not much. i like him as a character (i didnt care much for the original broly, and kefla was the worst. i hope they will make her non-canon somehow) but he is just too powerful. a character than can overpower everyone except gogeta and the angels is just too much for me. i like godly-powered characters, i just dont like them integrated too much into the story.
        I mean that's a fairly easy fix.

        "Wow Goku and Vegeta!" Said Krillin, "You've trained so much, you've become as powerful as Gogeta and Broly were!" And it was all off screen in prep for a tournament or something.
        It's not even that unlikely to be honest, same way Broly got that powerful in a sense.

        Signature and Avatar by NinjaSushi

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        • #19
          Originally posted by highwaysaiyan View Post

          i actually dont really want to see him again, or at least not much. i like him as a character (i didnt care much for the original broly, and kefla was the worst. i hope they will make her non-canon somehow) but he is just too powerful. a character than can overpower everyone except gogeta and the angels is just too much for me. i like godly-powered characters, i just dont like them integrated too much into the story.
          Honestly, his high power making him exempt from future stories is a very strange conclusion. Just because he is strong doesn't mean he has to ruin future arcs, especially when other characters can catch up to him.

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          • #20
            I saw it again this afternoon and I liked it even more this time. My only gripe, or rather thing I wanted more of, was the quick moment where Broly tried to fight Whis. I didn't want Whis to beat him or anything, but I wish that moment was a bit longer.


            ミスドは聖地じゃ

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            • #21
              I've given it some time to stew, so here are my thoughts, broken down into a pros and cons list.

              Pros

              -The animation is gorgeous.

              -The gigantic fight scene is the most intense, visually appealing fight we've gotten in the entire franchise's history.

              -I enjoyed the comedic elements.

              -Vegeta doesn't job, lol. That's how you subvert expectations

              -Some really good stuff from Sumitomo. The vocal chanting during the fight scenes was a bit weird, but overall, I enjoyed the score. This piece in particular really stands out.
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQDERlZFEuY

              -F R E E Z A. Seriously, how do they do it? What should be tiresome is practically the best part of the movie. Freeza is such a joy in this film.

              Cons

              -Minus. There realistically wasn't a way to get around adapting Minus, but it doesn't make it any less bad. This also creates continuity issues. The Super Anime supposedly follows Kai, yet Kai starts with a snippet from the Bardock special, which was retconned by Minus.

              -Bardock's rebellion was undone, at least as far as the theatrical release is concerned. I understand the movie was cut in half, and Bardock is already damaged when he tries to stop Freeza's attack, so Bardock's rebellion may have simply been cut. It still wasn't a good idea to cut it, given it's caused confusion.

              -Cheelye comes across as a self insert, which is ultimately distracting.

              -Despite Broli ultimately being a more nuanced character, as soon as the fighting starts, he just turns into the Broli we saw in movies 10 and 11. All grunts and screams.

              -The power scaling is a bit wacky IMO. Not only do we have Broli no selling an attack from Super Saiyan God Vegeta while Goku is holding his own in base and Super Saiyan after, we also have the confusion Gogeta creates. Understand that it isn't impossible for base and Super Gogeta to be stronger than SSGSS Goku and Vegeta, but this has an effect on Vegetto and Tournament of Power scaling. I've tried reconciling the idea that a base fusion is necessarily stronger than the strongest forms of the fusees with Tournament of Power scaling, and I have been unsuccessful. I've had to rely on the idea that Gogeta is using the power of Super Saiyan God like Goku did when he merged with Super Saiyan God to make sense of it, but of course I can't make a good case for that.

              -I don't buy that Freeza was able to tangle with Super Saiyan Broli for an hour. Whis should have been holding Broli off for the majority of that time.

              -Gogeta almost killing Broli is a bit weird. We have Goku saying he's not a bad guy, yet Gogeta is all too willing to vaporize Broli with Kamehameha before Cheelye saves him.

              -Speaking of Gogeta bodying Broli, It's honestly a little disappointing that the form Broli is known for doesn't amount to much. I feel like Goku should have whipped out the Kaio-ken x20 and forced Broli into his Legendary Super Saiyan state, where he beats SSGSSKKx20 Goku and SSGSS Evolved Vegeta. At that point, they should have fused and defeated Broli as a SSGSS, skipping the whole base and Super Saiyan portions because, like I said, it creates problems as far as I can tell.

              -Like the majority of modern Dragon Ball, there's a lack of tension.

              -Not enough Bulma.

              -Goten and Trunks still haven't aged.

              Mixed

              -Broli. Broli is certainly a more nuanced character like I said, but at the same time, I can't help but feel this won't add much in the long run. I'm one of the few hardcore fans that actually doesn't mind Broli's original incarnation, at least as far as movie 8 is concerned. Movies 10 and 11 were unnecessary and took Broli's one note seek and destroy characterization and made somehow even more one note. At least movie 8 Broli could string together sentences. Anyway, I liked that original Broli because he was the personification of an idea. The true Super Saiyan, the legendary Super Saiyan, the most powerful being in the universe who loved blood and battle. He didn't need to be a particularly deep or nuanced character, he needed to be a force of nature, and that's what he was. I liked him in spite of his simplicity because of what he was and because he was intimidating, and had presence. This new Broli, while likable, when he's not grunting and screaming like the one we saw in movies 10 and 11, has lost what made him originally effective IMO. The movie doesn't go into the whole original/legendary Super Saiyan thing. Broli is just unnaturally powerful for no specified reason. He's not really intimidating anymore because he's not evil. I just can't say this Broli is better than old one, simply different. A lot of people have certainly taken a liking to him because of that. People think he can be incorporated into more stories now, but I'll be honest, I don't see what they'd do with him. Is he to bail Goku and co. out of trouble? That's basically just another Zeno button, undermining the drama and tension even further than it already has been because now it's not just gods that are helping save the day. Is he gonna train with Goku or Whis? Broli would just be stronger than Goku and co. at that point, and we can't have that. I just don't see a ton of potential for this new Broli. Granted, that hasn't stopped Toei before. Broli should have been a one off originally, but we got movies 10 and 11, so I guess what I'm saying is, get ready for this Broli to disappoint you too.

              Overall, I enjoyed the movie. Not the best film, but certainly not the worst, and I'd say this is some of the best stuff modern Dragon Ball has put out. I hope in continues to improve from here.
              Last edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans; 21-01-2019, 04:50 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by PF18 View Post

                Honestly, his high power making him exempt from future stories is a very strange conclusion. Just because he is strong doesn't mean he has to ruin future arcs, especially when other characters can catch up to him.
                the problem with extremely powered characters in every franchise is that they cannot be handled without distorting the story, especially divine beings. (TOAA in marvel for example)
                how can you handle someone who cannot be stopped ? you must always have a threat big enough. broly is a freak, more than freeza, just too powerful.
                namek dragon balls pretty much ruined the dragon ball tension when people can always be ressurected. to fix it, toriyama had to create arcs where the dragon balls were destroyed before the thread became real enough.

                Originally posted by Shinobu View Post
                I saw it again this afternoon and I liked it even more this time. My only gripe, or rather thing I wanted more of, was the quick moment where Broly tried to fight Whis. I didn't want Whis to beat him or anything, but I wish that moment was a bit longer.
                doesnt work with his character. he is an angel, not a fighter. combat is beneath him, and anyway he is waaaaaaaaay to powerful for any mortal.
                Last edited by highwaysaiyan; 21-01-2019, 11:03 PM.

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                • #23
                  This movie's basically just one big fight with only the bare minimum amount of narrative table setting, which is par of the course for Dragon Ball, but the main differential is that, for the first time in a while, that action is actually really good, easily the best in the franchise (not counting the original manga). Everything in the movie besides the fighting is there simply to justify or complement said fighting and, for once, that feels earned.

                  Basically, it's nothing special, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. The best Dragon Ball movie.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by highwaysaiyan View Post

                    the problem with extremely powered characters in every franchise is that they cannot be handled without distorting the story, especially divine beings. (TOAA in marvel for example)
                    how can you handle someone who cannot be stopped ? you must always have a threat big enough. broly is a freak, more than freeza, just too powerful.
                    namek dragon balls pretty much ruined the dragon ball tension when people can always be ressurected. to fix it, toriyama had to create arcs where the dragon balls were destroyed before the thread became real enough.



                    doesnt work with his character. he is an angel, not a fighter. combat is beneath him, and anyway he is waaaaaaaaay to powerful for any mortal.
                    Obviously. Still would be cool.


                    ミスドは聖地じゃ

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                    • #25
                      First half of the movie was great. The second? Not so much. Broly was, by far, best part of the movie. Never thought I'd say that in a million years but here we are...

                      Vegeta's fight was awesome, Goku's was redundant. Frieza having to deal with (read: get beat on by) Broly while Goku and Vegeta were trying to fuse was great! The humor was spot on, too! However, there was far too much pointless fighting... I know, 'it's a Dragonball movie!' Well I didn't need to see Vegeta fight in red and then have Goku do the same. It got boring.

                      It was nice when I forgot Beerus and Whis were there, because they kind of undermine everything to me. Always sighed when I remembered they were a thing and checked out when Whis started 'fighting' Broly.

                      I was far more interested in the new characters, Broly, Cheelai and Lemo. When they were in that room, talking about Broly's 'friend', that's what I wanted to see. I didn't expect it, I'm glad I got a little taste of it, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't want more of that.

                      Overall, definitely the best thing to come out of Super.


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                      • #26
                        Spoiler Alert!
                        I agree with Tinny and am surprised at the negative reaction to it. I saw Broli as more of the main character and even have been conflicted as to whether or not he was the protagonist. Given that other reviewers of the movie - both Dragon Ball fans and newcomers alike - have designated him different roles of antagonist/protagonist as well... it's certainly a sign of a good character actually being developed. It felt as if Broli was the one having to evolve constantly to deal with the overwhelming power of Goku/Vegeta which is often the role the protagonist finds himself in... hopeless and at their limit, their opponent seemingly insurmountable. Goku and Vegeta were by no means antagonists, but, because I saw Broli as more of the protagonist as I watched it, I actually thought Beerus and Whis' inclusion to be irrelevant. I saw Paragus/Freeza to be more antagonistic/villain-like. I went into it with no opinion, no bias, having heard no other opinions and wanted to form my own thoughts on it.

                        Seeing the complexity in the themes tackled - an abusive childhood, PTSD, etc. in Broli was surprising. I truly doubted Toriyama's ability to write a complex character in which, while it would be irresponsible to condone the character's actions, to understand and even be able to empathize with them in my case made it especially tragic when I thought Broli was really going to go the way of any other movie "villain" and die. That's when the Dragon Balls were used. Because of Freeza's positioning when the dragon was summoned, I initially thought he was summoning the dragon. That was quickly subverted and the first time a wish was used to directly save someone from dying rather than resetting the fact that they died in the first place was incredibly refreshing. For the first time in a long time, I felt like the titular Dragon Balls actually stole the show.

                        If you disliked Freeza's handling in Super (though I certainly understand hating Res F) then you probably didn't like him in the Broli movie. I, for the most part, thought he was one of the few great parts of the Universal Survival Arc so his character development in this movie felt natural and made sense. I loved Freeza, I loved Broli and I loved the role reversal of having to root against Gogeta as Broli's panic reached a fever pitch when the Kamehameha was arriving to finish him off. Given Vegeta didn't hesitate in delivering a killing blow to Broli and Gogeta is his own entity, I didn't find this to be odd. The Minus retcons essentially just make Goku a Superman ripoff, rather than being Superman-like but having his own differences that set him apart. I have mixed to negative feelings on that. I look forward to actually seeing this in theaters to give it a proper critical analysis from start to finish but yes, this was one of the best things to come out of this franchise for a long time.

                        Complicated character folds were established that I didn't think Toriyama would ever be capable of. Broli was redeemed as a character and while I understand that some might pick apart how it breaks the canon or retcons/contradicts in some spots, this franchise is older than pretty much all of us as human beings. It doesn't surprise me that this has had to happen. We contradict our previous nature all the time, change and evolve in ways that conflict with our past selves. While this isn't quite as viable of an excuse for an anime/manga serialization, it does apply to Toriyama, who I don't envy his position. I'm fairly confident literally none of us could keep everything organized in a series that is so massive and constantly growing as of late.

                        Looking past those kinds of flaws, yeah, this was spectacular. I was blown away and I had high expectations, I expected to be disappointed. I was not.
                        Brother! Your crusade IS OVER!!

                        NO...!!

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                        • #27
                          Thinking about going to watch this in the cinema. How is the dub? Is it a good movie for someone who hasn't watched DB/Z/Super, but is familiar with who Goku and Vegeta are (and to a lesser extent Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Krillin)?
                          “Planets are just places for people to stand on. Planets are just rocks. It takes people to make it a world. You can have as many “Earths” as you want. I only care about what’s inside.” – Sakamoto Tatsuma


                          Kamikaze Pyro is a girl? olsiw

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                          • #28
                            I would say it's good and has a compelling story, still an excuse for a giant fight scene but there's actually meat to dig into here.

                            I'll just give this advice wolffanghameha
                            Broly is the main character, watch it like that. This is a story about Broly.

                            Also I saw the dub, it's good, in my opinion anyway, though dbz is a bit of an entrenched dub.

                            Signature and Avatar by NinjaSushi

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                            • #29
                              Man, it's so interesting reading what you all have to day. I love the movie. I think it's the best peice of DB media outside of the manga. Or, at least I feel that way right now, who knows how time will change things. It's worth noting that I am a typically pretty critical and negative person for whom nothing is ever quite good enough, but I'm so overjoyed by this movie in ways I didn't think was actually possible. I've not been this excited about a thing in a long time, and that excitement wasn't really present until I was in the cinema, grinning.

                              Never been a huge Broly fan - always liked the idea of him, but here we have a very different core idea. I think there is room in the fandom for both characters and for people who appreciate different aspects of both. I love this Broly, he's an outstanding character who really appeals to my tastes. And to have a Dragon Ball movie focus so heavily on a character other than Goku is insane and brilliant. This movie is so weird and everything I didn't know I wanted from Dragon Ball. I'm gonna c&p the points I made on Kanzensuu... I'll put them in a spoiler tag so to not eat up the page.

                              Spoiler Alert!
                              It's easier to say what I don't like, so...
                              I really, really, really don't like the 3D **** on the characters. I think it is jarring and kinda ugly. I've seen a lot of people say it's fine or they like it, and that's cool, but for me, it's so distracting. It's very hard to explain why I hate it though, other than to say it looks... wrong. It's as if the characters go go from being fluid to being stuck under stobe lights, where their movements suddenly become jerky and joints less supple. I've always been weird about 3D animation though and I often can't look past things that just don't bother other people, especially when it comes to organic animal or human forms making macro movements with their limbs, like walking. That recent Watership Down remake was driving me absolutely insane when I caught glimpses of it on the TV over Xmas, whilst my family wondered wtf my problem was. I'm the guy who wishes creatures in movies would go back to being puppets. So, I get it, I'm fussy. That's cool. Personal taste thing.
                              The other thing I'm not keen on is... I don't know. The first half is weird? I have weird feelings about the first half. It's so gappy, yet goes on too long? Like, there's clearly loads missing that would give it so much more depth, but it still outstays its welcome.
                              I don't like the fast forward bit with the ****ty Head Cha La rendition. It's weird. Feels tonally off. It's a crappy version of the song. Suddenly felt very Super and uhhhhh.

                              I love everything else. I legit love everything else.

                              Some personal highlights for me...
                              The music is amazing. Mostly. I think it really works well with the action and delivers what a soundtrack should... Mood! I love the chanting! I think it's really cool, works so well in context. Really hypes up the scene. Really delivers the experience as an epic match that I've been waiting for for 15 years.
                              The animation is beautiful - the characters gorgeous and they move in the most flamboyant and powerful ways. Vegeta's rampage of calling Goku stupid over and over is so good. The shot of Goku's foot when he stalls Broly and then Broly works out how to use it against him. So. Good. The scene where Broly is manically panting and crying like an insane animal looking down at Goku and mimicking his posture. *BREATH* Beautiful. Goku's talk with Piccolo. Moving. The entire fights except CGI elements are just perfect, relentless, chaos. Hnnnngggg! It barely gives you time to breath. It's an onslaught. It's perfect.
                              Broly is awesome... I love this Broly. I love that when he's manic, he really feels manic. He's uncomfortably manic. That **** is scary. I hated old Broly, always loved the idea of him, and I think they've taken what matters here and made it interesting. I love that they make a big-ol deal about the Great Ape, too. I like where this is going. I like this idea of Broly as some freak of nature that's the embodiment of the ancient biology of saiyans, I guess? That's the vibe I'm getting and I dig it.
                              All the little teases... Green hair Vegeta? WHATS THAT? Ultra Instinct flash! AH! Ahhh!
                              Gogeta smirking. Actually no, this should have gone in the bad list.... There wasn't enough cocky Gogeta for my liking! There can never be enough!
                              The humour actually legitimately being hilarious... My personal favourite is Whis' "oh my", but others obviously include Freeza's murder of Paragus (god dammit Chris Ayres you're amazing), and Goku's "have fun Freeza!" I was crying.
                              Characterisations feel right again. Goku and Vegeta felt weird through a lot of Super for me. I'm fine with characters evolving, but Goku was ....weird and even Vegeta felt kind of wrong a lot of the time to me. Here they behave like I expect them to. Vegeta is so on edge and serious and worried about Goku having resurrected Freeza. Goku is a goof, but when things get serious he's worried.

                              Actually I've thought of another thing I was a bit eh on... The ending ain't great, but it's also so DB I don't... Care?


                              The real highlight though, especially during my second viewing, was the audience loosing their ****, clapping, cheering. Was amazing.

                              I wish I could go back to being 14 and see this movie. It would have made me so, so happy at a otherwise really miserable time.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by saiyanhajime View Post
                                Man, it's so interesting reading what you all have to day. I love the movie. I think it's the best peice of DB media outside of the manga. Or, at least I feel that way right now, who knows how time will change things. It's worth noting that I am a typically pretty critical and negative person for whom nothing is ever quite good enough, but I'm so overjoyed by this movie in ways I didn't think was actually possible. I've not been this excited about a thing in a long time, and that excitement wasn't really present until I was in the cinema, grinning.

                                Never been a huge Broly fan - always liked the idea of him, but here we have a very different core idea. I think there is room in the fandom for both characters and for people who appreciate different aspects of both. I love this Broly, he's an outstanding character who really appeals to my tastes. And to have a Dragon Ball movie focus so heavily on a character other than Goku is insane and brilliant. This movie is so weird and everything I didn't know I wanted from Dragon Ball. I'm gonna c&p the points I made on Kanzensuu... I'll put them in a spoiler tag so to not eat up the page.

                                Spoiler Alert!
                                It's easier to say what I don't like, so...
                                I really, really, really don't like the 3D **** on the characters. I think it is jarring and kinda ugly. I've seen a lot of people say it's fine or they like it, and that's cool, but for me, it's so distracting. It's very hard to explain why I hate it though, other than to say it looks... wrong. It's as if the characters go go from being fluid to being stuck under stobe lights, where their movements suddenly become jerky and joints less supple. I've always been weird about 3D animation though and I often can't look past things that just don't bother other people, especially when it comes to organic animal or human forms making macro movements with their limbs, like walking. That recent Watership Down remake was driving me absolutely insane when I caught glimpses of it on the TV over Xmas, whilst my family wondered wtf my problem was. I'm the guy who wishes creatures in movies would go back to being puppets. So, I get it, I'm fussy. That's cool. Personal taste thing.
                                The other thing I'm not keen on is... I don't know. The first half is weird? I have weird feelings about the first half. It's so gappy, yet goes on too long? Like, there's clearly loads missing that would give it so much more depth, but it still outstays its welcome.
                                I don't like the fast forward bit with the ****ty Head Cha La rendition. It's weird. Feels tonally off. It's a crappy version of the song. Suddenly felt very Super and uhhhhh.

                                I love everything else. I legit love everything else.

                                Some personal highlights for me...
                                The music is amazing. Mostly. I think it really works well with the action and delivers what a soundtrack should... Mood! I love the chanting! I think it's really cool, works so well in context. Really hypes up the scene. Really delivers the experience as an epic match that I've been waiting for for 15 years.
                                The animation is beautiful - the characters gorgeous and they move in the most flamboyant and powerful ways. Vegeta's rampage of calling Goku stupid over and over is so good. The shot of Goku's foot when he stalls Broly and then Broly works out how to use it against him. So. Good. The scene where Broly is manically panting and crying like an insane animal looking down at Goku and mimicking his posture. *BREATH* Beautiful. Goku's talk with Piccolo. Moving. The entire fights except CGI elements are just perfect, relentless, chaos. Hnnnngggg! It barely gives you time to breath. It's an onslaught. It's perfect.
                                Broly is awesome... I love this Broly. I love that when he's manic, he really feels manic. He's uncomfortably manic. That **** is scary. I hated old Broly, always loved the idea of him, and I think they've taken what matters here and made it interesting. I love that they make a big-ol deal about the Great Ape, too. I like where this is going. I like this idea of Broly as some freak of nature that's the embodiment of the ancient biology of saiyans, I guess? That's the vibe I'm getting and I dig it.
                                All the little teases... Green hair Vegeta? WHATS THAT? Ultra Instinct flash! AH! Ahhh!
                                Gogeta smirking. Actually no, this should have gone in the bad list.... There wasn't enough cocky Gogeta for my liking! There can never be enough!
                                The humour actually legitimately being hilarious... My personal favourite is Whis' "oh my", but others obviously include Freeza's murder of Paragus (god dammit Chris Ayres you're amazing), and Goku's "have fun Freeza!" I was crying.
                                Characterisations feel right again. Goku and Vegeta felt weird through a lot of Super for me. I'm fine with characters evolving, but Goku was ....weird and even Vegeta felt kind of wrong a lot of the time to me. Here they behave like I expect them to. Vegeta is so on edge and serious and worried about Goku having resurrected Freeza. Goku is a goof, but when things get serious he's worried.

                                Actually I've thought of another thing I was a bit eh on... The ending ain't great, but it's also so DB I don't... Care?


                                The real highlight though, especially during my second viewing, was the audience loosing their ****, clapping, cheering. Was amazing.

                                I wish I could go back to being 14 and see this movie. It would have made me so, so happy at a otherwise really miserable time.
                                Is....Gogeta dabbing in your avatar?

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