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| Would you convert to being a vegan as a sacrifice for love? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 9 2016, 03:56 PM (1,997 Views) | |
| Sam | Aug 9 2016, 10:27 PM Post #46 |
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It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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I see. I think Emmeth is more trying to say that he shouldn't feel ashamed or like he should be shamed by other people just because he doesn't choose a particular lifestyle. That's how I saw it anyway. To me, though, aside from some small technical disagreements over analogies and such, I agree with your core message on morality. I can't speak to whether or not being a vegan is absolutely a healthier lifestyle. I wouldn't go that far, because each person's body chemistry is slightly different and there are plenty of studies and anecdotes to be found on both sides of the argument. But, I will agree that it is completely feasible to have a healthy, well rounded diet while being a vegan. I've seen it. Some people I knew used some supplements for things they needed, others just had all the science behind it figured out and didn't need supplemental nutrition. |
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Aug 9 2016, 10:31 PM Post #47 |
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Dairy products and lean meats have a lot of nutrients that are really good for you. I don't see how they could be bad for you if you're buying organic and staying away from chemically injected foods. All I can really speak from though is my own experience. My diet mostly consists of chicken and fish (grilled or baked), fruits, rice, beans, and eggs. There are days when I can completely avoid meat altogether, as one of my favorite meals to eat at home for lunch is my signature dish--rice, black beans, and an egg. Being a vegan would be extremely difficult for me because I also avoid gluten for health reasons. That means no fried food or bread for me. |
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| Sam | Aug 9 2016, 10:50 PM Post #48 |
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It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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I mostly just avoid gluten because most products containing gluten aren't really necessary to consume at all, and tend to be unhealthy. Even "whole wheat" products are really just carb-bundles with some nutritional value. I haven't had bread or cereal in a long time. |
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WoW Legion Ending - Thank you Darker for making this into one, big incredible gif! <3 | |
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Aug 9 2016, 10:54 PM Post #49 |
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I eat gluten-free bread when I need bread for something, or gluten-free cereal when I feel like eating cereal. I have a really sensitive stomach that happens to freak out especially when I eat gluten. |
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| + Sandy Shore | Aug 9 2016, 11:19 PM Post #50 |
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So you both agree that it's possible to be a vegan, and it's your choice to continue eating it - not a necessity. Id est, if necessary, you could do away with it. Since it's not a necessity, and you continue doing it for your own pleasure, you're being undeniably cruel, no? If you're willfully and knowingly being cruel, are you not partaking in immorality? You might shrug it off and say you don't care, or that animals aren't worth your compassion and effort, but it is what it is all the same. A human-centric view, but I'll grant you that killing humans involves more suffering than with killing animals. But how many animals need suffer before it equates to the same suffering felt from a person? Two? Three? Ten? Even if one human suffered one-thousand times more keenly than that of an animal, it would still only take a few months before we've collectively exceeded the atrocities of the holocaust. Something we still grieve over today. You can't deny that animals suffer in largely the same way we do, with pigs being comparable to three-year-old humans. Six-million holocaust victims is seriously—sincerely—nothing compared to fifty to sixty-billion animals every year, and dying in more horrific, prolonged way. The accumulated suffering is utterly, utterly—unspeakably—incomparable. It's completely arbitrary, though. It's not fair. Because you like them less or are less emotionally attached they're not worthy of much more than being abused and eaten for little more than someone's pleasure? You're not emotionally attached to Dave to who live's in a Dagenham council house, but you don't think someone else should carve him up because it gives them pleasure in some form. Why would you want to eat them, then? The sane thing to do would be to keep away from them, not have them inside you. Yes, they've been made safe so you could do so. As for them being cruel, it's funnily enough the most placid one's that humans have a taste for. If them being cruel were a reason to abuse and eat them then various cats and chimps would be the main dishes. Humans get stronger by eating and being active. Meat in and of itself is not a necessary component of that. Protein and nutrients are not exclusive to meat, and the one single thing you can't get from a diet without meat or dairy is B12—save for some rarish? mushroom, apparently—but we can fortify vegan foods with it now, anyway. You don't even have to eat an abundance to make up for it, I promise you. There's too much calcium in milk, anyway. You don't need that much. No, but the evidence very much suggests it. You'll agree with the idea that most appeals to you, then, and not the one that's supported by the evidence. It would be strange for me to thank you in some way, since it's not me you're helping, but it is an undeniably positive thing. Truly. Confidence, perhaps? There's nothing in my life that I am or ought to be proud of. And I, you. I'm just going through the points as you present them, is all. Yes, food is certainly better for you than no food. I'm not at all suggesting you're going to die or get ill from eating meat and dairy, but it's erroneous to suggest that a diet devoid of those things will in some way make you unhealthy when evidence suggests the opposite to be true. If you do take a turn for the worse upon removing those things, it's not because your body needs them but because you haven't replaced them with something equally as valuable in calories and whatnot. Organic is not better than the regular factory stuff, either. And the same goes for how humane it is. Just ask Google. I understand it's harder for some people than it is others, but it's only an impossibility due to a health related issue for a the tiniest percent of people, and any dependence upon it would more-than-likely be caused by excessive consumption in the first place. There's no need for us to raise children with same addictions and bad habits - it's cruel on both them and the animals. The good thing, at the very least, would for people to stop denying it's an impossibility, stop denying that's it's cruel, needless, and senseless for us in our living conditions; to stop treating the "cause" like it's the domain of the mentally insane, and simply try your very best to help out the helpless. That's not to anyone in particular, but the inappropriate attitude countless people all over have about the issue. Edited by Sandy Shore, Aug 9 2016, 11:22 PM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Aug 9 2016, 11:25 PM Post #51 |
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Izanagi!
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I don't think I'd ever go Vegan. Not because I can't, but simply because I don't want to. Eating meat and dairy provides me with the opportunity to make a large variety of meals that I actually like. I despise vegetables; the tastes, the textures, everything. I'll eat 'em with my meals for the health benefits, but that's about it. |
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| + Steve | Aug 9 2016, 11:46 PM Post #52 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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That's not even about meat though, pretty sure we don't really spray animals with pesticides I don't see how it's automatically "undeniably cruel" for everyone to eat any sort of meat, you're forcing people to agree with a set line of morality there, which may not be their own. Undeniably cruel by your own measures, not the definitive ones for there are none. There are a lot of places where animals aren't just kept in tiny boxes ready to be slaughtered, where they get to live on a farm in a natural(mostly) setting. I take no issue with eating such meats, why should anyone have to? It's possible to eat and enjoy meat and disagree with the conditions in which animals are often kept. Any issue taken with farms rearing animals in humane conditions is personal. As would be any issues taken with such farms in a world where they were how it's done, which I'm pretty sure most meat eaters(at least in the first world) would agree is what we should aim for. We're not all cruel bastards that stand and watch unhealthy, wheezing pigs get pushed in to a line of whirling blades for amusement. |
![]() Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| Sam | Aug 10 2016, 12:03 AM Post #53 |
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It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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I'm going to call this the elephant in the room of every debate like this. The thing is, I think everyone but the more ignorant tiers of first world humanity would agree that this statement is 100% true. However, we don't like hearing it over and over again. People naturally don't want to feel ashamed, or that they are committing an act, that, as you put it, is undeniably cruel. However, we can be cognizant of these facts and still be willing to objectively view what vegans have to say and not take it personally. How I take it, Lazuli, that one of your points is that we should be willing to listen to you and consider change. You're confident in representing an issue that you feel is underscored by a majority of our collective populace. I don't think you're telling us to change necessarily, just see your side of the argument and logically consider your opinion; a precursor to change. A huge amount of our populace eat meat, so, you're not trying to convince everyone or anyone in particular. This is a sensitive issue to many people for a natural reason, and the stigma needs to go away so everyone can be unbiased. Or I could just be a f***ing idiot... you decide.
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WoW Legion Ending - Thank you Darker for making this into one, big incredible gif! <3 | |
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| + Sandy Shore | Aug 10 2016, 12:55 AM Post #54 |
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No, it means organic animals are no more-or-less healthy than they would be otherwise. The food they're raised on amounts to the same thing. So all the negative effects of eating regular flesh also applies to organic flesh. Animals that are also more prone to infections, that they're not supposed to treat but secretly do.
And still shipped off to the slaughter-house like everyone else Steve, it doesn't matter whether you disagree with it being cruel. Reasoning it through logically, it remains what it is. It doesn't matter if you think punching a child in the face doesn't hurt them, it still does. Under the belief of the first statement, it doesn't matter if you think intentionally hurting them because you want to isn't cruel, it still is. If being willfully, needlessly, and selfishly cruel is immoral—which all of us here would seemingly agree to—then you arbitrarily deciding it doesn't extend to specific animals you wish to eat doesn't mean it doesn't. Only in your head. Prove animals don't suffer, or prove that you very much do need to eat them and their excretions. You can't, because you don't. Just because you don't think it's cruel, doesn't mean it isn't. Just because I think it's not cruel to own a slave—an opinion I might very well hold, and countless others have and do—doesn't mean it isn't. I suppose you're going to quip that just because I think it is, doesn't mean it is. But remember, I've reasoned it through with logic; you're being arbitrary. You can attempt to show me how you're not, and we'll just have a repeat of our previous discussions on this. Or you can just re-read them and save us the time and effort. Not listen to me per se, but just accept the issue for what it is wherever it comes from. People, like Steve, attempt to pretend it's something else, but it's not. Once you've accepted that, then you should aim to do everything in your power to change your contribution to it. If you give in to the temptation, don't go back to pretending it was necessary for you to eat it, and start playing mental gymnastics to soothe your conscience. Accept that you gave in to the temptation, and try again. You can start with meat, or you can start with dairy - just start somewhere. If you believe being moral is appropriate behaviour, of course. If you want to accept that you don't care about the suffering of others so long as you receive the desired pleasure from it, like Nagito, then you're not allowed to pretend you're not being outright inhumane. That's not an ad hominem, it's a statement of fact. It would remain the same if it were me doing such a thing, and I would recognise it as such. |
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| * Yu Narukami | Aug 10 2016, 12:59 AM Post #55 |
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Izanagi!
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I recognise that. I'm not gonna pretend to be a moral, just person when it comes to this topic. I realise that there's a ton of inhumane, horrendous stuff that goes on in the industry, but eating meat and dairy makes my life a lot easier, at least at the moment. |
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| Sky | Aug 10 2016, 02:25 AM Post #56 |
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One Special Nerd
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I love meat and I am my own person... So sorry, but I don't think this person and I would work out. I don't agree with what goes on in the animal world, they have short lives and should live a good life not only for our consumption but also because their lives ARE so short. I try my best to avoid the factory stuff, but y'know, it doesn't change the fact that sometimes you can't avoid it. And no, I don't feel like debating. You're not going to change what I think. I'm just adding my own opinion to the original question, not looking to have a morality debate. Don't drag me into this. Thanks! Edited by Sky, Aug 10 2016, 02:26 AM.
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Aug 10 2016, 03:25 AM Post #57 |
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Just popped in to say that when I said organic, I wasn't even really referring to meat. I don't buy organic meat. I buy organic fruits, vegetables, eggs, milk, etc. I don't even know what organic meat means. |
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| * Mitas | Aug 10 2016, 08:14 AM Post #58 |
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It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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There are lots of things that I could do to help stop the countless cruelties that go on in this world, both to humans and animals, at the hands of the human race. However, the society we've set up for ourselves means that every day we have to use something that could possibly be the result of cruelty. Wearing clothes that could possibly have come from workshops with dire working conditions. Using any product without doing the requisite research into making sure they aren't coming from the abuse of animals or humans. Live in housing estates or cities that have decimated the habitats of animals. Use products that come from trees that are cut down in droves. Walking around without looking where we are going to make sure we aren't accidentally stepping on insects. I'm sure the list goes on. Then lower down on the 'immoral' scale is being aware of ongoing cruelties without taking part in them, but doing nothing in the way of lending time, money, and effort to help combat them. We are a cruel, self-sufficient race, I don't deny that. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, because I can't think of anything that isn't deemed immoral out of compassion, but aren't morals all about compassion? If I don't have compassion for animals, how can I consider partaking in the meat industry immoral? And I agree with Steve, morals are not set in stone. They change with the times, they change with the culture, they change person to person. Some people would consider cheating in a relationship immoral, other people are polygamous. Some people would consider the death penalty just and therefore not immoral, others would deem any murder immoral. Some people would consider keeping pets immoral, others would not. As humans, we have the ability to think and analyse with individual thought what we deem immoral and what we don't. It's not in our nature to hold the same opinion or belief on every subject. |
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"Then you've got the chance to do better next time." "Next time?" "Course. Doing better next time. That's what life is." | |
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| Copy_Ninja | Aug 10 2016, 08:56 AM Post #59 |
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Novacane for the pain
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I have knocked around the idea of trying to transition to it at some point but I'm not there right now. I won't go in to my personal life but suffice it to say that restricting myself like that at this point in time would lead to some consequences I want to avoid. Though I do recognise the ethical points in doing so. That aside, I would never do it because someone tried to force me to like this. If anything that would be a massive red flag, I would never be with someone trying to control me like that. I understand if I had a vegan partner and she wanted me to change because and I wouldn't mind that. Besides, this is the kind of choice you need to make yourself and not for someone else. |
We'll never be those kids again
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| + Sandy Shore | Aug 10 2016, 09:52 AM Post #60 |
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I wanted to give you a like because I think if everybody made this simple admittance it would be a massively positive thing, but I don't want to be seen to support your choice to partake in it. So instead I'm pointing out that this is far better than nothing. You don't have to. These things can be avoided. Is it easy? No. Will everyone occasionally do something that resulted in the suffering of another? Absolutely. The point is to stop doing it as much as you can, and when you find yourself powerless to prevent your contribution to the suffering of others, don't accept it as if it wasn't cruel for you to have done so. Aim to do better in the future. Or, just accept that you're being cruel and inhumane, and don't feel outraged should someone ever point it out to you. (General statements.) To unintentionally step on an insect is unfortunate, as accidentally knocking a goat off a cliff would also be. To intentionally stamp on an insect or push a goat off a cliff would be unquestionably cruel. To find you own things made via child labour is unfortunate. To say "f*** it, it's cheap" and willfully buy it under that knowledge would be cruel. You're disregarding the suffering of another for your own pleasure or convenience. Being arbitrary about your victims doesn't change your actions whether you, Steve, or the 1940s recognise it as such. Even if you don't want to call it immoral, you still have to accept it's cruel and inhumane. Well, you don't, but it is. Compassion is the way in which we recognise what might be right and wrong, reason is how we ascertain whether it is or isn't by way of looking for a victim the actor needn't have harmed. People's empathy, compassion and own situation recognising women as second-class citizens didn't make people recognise it as immoral. The case had to be made. Reason it through, it is. People's empathy, compassion and own situation recognising slaves as miserable victims didn't make people recognise it as immoral. The case had to be made. Reason it through, it is. Of course, someone can recognise something as immoral, but it can be reasoned that it isn't: People's empathy and compassion might make them deem taking money from the wallet of a dead person in the middle of nowhere to be immoral, but reasoning that there's no victim and no suffering as a result of those actions means that it doesn't hold up. If you want to try and reason that eating animals for your pleasure isn't needless and cruel then you're welcome to try, but you won't succeed. Just as I wouldn't succeed in pointing out why my ownership of a little, dark Himalayan boy is victimless. It's not about what you feel, what you like and love, it's about recognising the effects of an action and whether they're needlessly and selfishly negative to others. What people feel is merely a prelude. Don't call it moral or immoral if you want to play around with the fact that morality is a human construct, just recognise it for what it is: a willful and needless abuse of another living thing that suffers for your own pleasure. Cruel. Inhumane. If not these things, what else is it? Edited by Sandy Shore, Aug 10 2016, 10:22 AM.
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