lazerbem

Aug 9 2016, 01:59 AM

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a saiyan who was raised to be bloodthirsty and give in to that nature, plus ave his entire species destroyed and be raised in an environment where it's literally his day to day routine to cause the extinction of countless billions of species...yeah, the guy may be a little 'whiny' or 'entitled' if he was raised to believe his power was all that ever mattered.

That doesn't fly when you realize that both Raditz and Nappa had better moral fiber despite the exact same upbringing. Nappa in particular actually shows care for his comrades. Vegeta on the other hand, callously kills his own allies and doesn't care in the least about their race's extinction. Not to mention that if the life was so bad, why did he want to return to it? He said so himself that he wanted to be like he was back in the old days, and not for any reason besides the fact that it'd give him an edge on Goku.

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Sorry it just erks me to think anyone would consider a life like that 'privileged'. That's a horrible life.

Given he enjoyed it, it certainly seems privileged. No one was forcing him to stay Freeza's dog, he could have gone into hiding like Tarble did and avoided all of it. Besides, Freeza had him on a ridiculously long leash. He could go AWOL without any consequences.

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Living the conditions which would make a person WANT to be like that is the tragedy of his character which he was eventually able to fully move past thanks to Goku and his family and at the end of Z he's grateful to them. Vegeta's behaviour always made sense considering his ridiculous past.

Problem is that he's worse than a good portion of Freeza's soldiers. He's worse than Nappa and the Ginyu Force, simply because they seemed to at least care a bit for their allies and friends, while Vegeta had a smile as he exploded his one friend and one of the last Saiyans.

But even if he had this truly horrible past, the problem lies in the fact that Vegeta himself doesn't make a big deal about it. He's only pissy over Goku because he thinks Goku doesn't deserve to be the best. It's purely jealousy, and the fact that he sells his soul over it is the whiny part. The entitled part is thinking he deserves to be the strongest because he's a prince, not because of his training.

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Raditz really wasn't around long enough to think he had more moral fibre than Vegeta, he just needed his brother for the next mission and was happy enough to kill him and his nephew as soon as he knew that wouldn't happen or that they were a threat.

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Why would he want to return to the old days? Because in the old days he was a child raised around horrors and for that reason he didn't care about others or the people he killed or the suffering he caused.

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Becoming majin would remove that fact he was becoming a good person it would remove the pain of guilt and the weight of his actions.

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Vegeta DID like being that person until he wasn't. Going back to it was giving in to the bad part in him which still existed, it was a simpler time where he had no repercussions for what he'd done.

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. Obsessing over surpassing Goku for all those years could arguably be his way of distracting himself from the changes he'd been going through which was why he lept on the opportunity to succumb to the magic and fight Goku again. It was never just about Goku, it was a lot more complicated than that.

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Obvously, because he did end the fight with Goku and killed himself trying to save his world. It was a slip up on his long road to redemption which is understandable considering his past.

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Imagine a human child in the real world brought up expected to cause mass genocide on a daily basis. Do you not think that kid might make a few u turns before they were fully over it?

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Vegeta didn't get a convenient one and done redemption like Piccolo, he was much more messed up to begin with.

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Nappa didn't surpass everyone as a child, he wasn't a prodigy. Vegeta was spoilt and arrogant because of how he happened to be born into the world and

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then everyone he knew were killed.

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Perhaps I am reading a subtext which isn't there but actions speak louder than words. When Cell blasted a whole through Trunks, Vegeta didn't say "Oh bloody hell that's my kid whom I've just realised I care about, I'll get you Cell!" He just charged him, we inferred Vegeta's feelings from his actions.

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It wasn't as simple as besting Goku, Vegeta never wanted outside help ever and yet he's suddenly accepting magic power ups and mind control to beat Goku? His actions have always been bigger than what he's said.

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Same way Bulma and Trunks both saw more in Vegeta than others did

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it was always about more than his pride being scuffed by Goku, it was the fact that that pride was all he had. All he had ever had.

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I don't know if it was in the manga so forgive me to referring to it but one of my favourite Vegeta lines is when Supreme Kai says something like "be innocent and pure" when Babidi is trying to control Vegeta and Vegeta replies "how can you say that? I'm not innocent!"

EMIYA

Aug 9 2016, 03:37 AM

Vegeta's stint in the Boo Arc is entirely rushed. Since the ending of the Cell Arc, Vegeta was a guy who had made a huge change from the mass murder who'd kill his own comrades to a guy who'd attack a guy multi-folds above himself because his own son died. That's something no Vegeta before would have done. It was supposed to be a huge character development.

By the time Trunks returns to the future, not only does Vegeta give him the peace sign, he's even wearing earthling clothes.

And now he's got seven years to bond with his son and family. Seven years to do whatever he wants and regardless of his status compared to Goku, in seven years Vegeta made some pretty darn good gains.

And then Goku is stronger than him. Not only is everything his character ever accomplished just thrown out the window, but its rushed beyond compared. There's no insight into Vegeta's mind or head. There's no internal struggle because we know Vegeta cares, we know he's not a heartless monster. But for this one moment and Vegeta decides to just go evil and murder people so he can fight Goku.

I've always made the point that Babidi should have just controlled Vegeta, gripping onto latent desires and have Vegeta fight against them knowing that this isn't the past he's on anymore. It would have made him into so much more of a character than short moment of greed. What's worse is that Vegeta doesn't even change. He's still a jerk, hates Goku for holding back on him and even makes up some deranged Genki-Dama plan so that the Earth can take responsibility.

GT Vegeta is what Boo Arc Vegeta should've been, a strong, prideful man with a stint of arrogance but nonetheless an obvious care for his family even if he might not admit it directly.

EMIYA

Aug 9 2016, 02:04 PM

When I say rushed, I don't mean rushed like time or distance. I mean it in terms of characterization and build up. We don't delve into Vegeta's character at this time. His rather abrupt change comes out of nowhere. There's no point before we get to Vegeta's change that he's still evil, or filled with such emotions that he wants to defeat Goku at all cost. At his worst, he just wants to battle but we never get into his character enough to see just how deep this feeling is until the last moment.

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We've seen Vegeta develop as a character throughout the series and by now, anyone would be under the impression that Vegeta has at least gained enough sense. His change here is far less about him and much more to just move the plot along it seems. There's really no struggle before or after. Vegeta becomes evil on what seems like a whim and then stops being evil on the same whim as well.

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It's not like it comes out of nowhere. Vegeta has expressed his intent on fighting Goku, and goes along to make sure he comes back to fight. We have Vegeta becoming increasingly impatient with all these events that mean nothing to him, and wants to just get it over with. If it wasn't enough for you to believe he would go and do what he did, then your issue must be with the writing, not the character's motivation itself.

You mentioned Vegeta's development in to more of an Earthling, and that stuff doesn't go away. Vegeta himself recognised it, and that's why he desired Babidi to reawaken his vicious streak. He needs to goad Goku in to fighting him before the day is up—something that constantly becomes increasingly unlikely—and so obviously he wouldn't have been able to murder those people without it.

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I disagree. This wasn't necessary to move the plot along. Boo could have been awakened by making Dabra more powerful, or having Gohan's energy be enough, if that were the issue. It seems the fans and/or Toriyama wanted a rematch between the two, and Vegeta himself was obviously gagging for it as well.

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It doesn't seem at all out of character or an absurd situation to me. He's got this one day to fight his long-time rival, and he feels everyone is messing around with a bunch of weaklings and things that don't matter to him.

Someone—I think it might have been you—also mentioned Vegeta still whining about Goku holding back even after his fight, and I don't understand how that's a ridiculous reaction. Imagine yourself dedicating a significant amount of time to improving at something that means almost, if not everything to you; imagine you've finally gotten yourself to a point that you feel you can stand up to the best of them and feel somewhat content with your standing, only to find out they were holding back on you. Pitying you, or deeming you too insignificant to try.

Would that not infuriate or humiliate you? Surely it must? If you don't get it then you just don't sympathise with his character, but it's completely understandable as far as I can see.