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| Base Goku and Vegeta=>Ep 14 Goku; And the two base theory is fanfic at its finest | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 26 2016, 03:26 AM (4,505 Views) | |
| Timothy | Jul 27 2016, 10:54 PM Post #16 |
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Jesus...can you cite this sbg form being noted in dbs at all? Dont get me started on that white aura argument cause they been have it and show these high feats without an aura at time. Sbg is the name dbh gave rof base goku and vegeta. Its not a legitimately new form. Its not something you transform into. Base form is base form period |
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Jul 27 2016, 11:00 PM Post #17 |
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@when they emit god ki they seemingly automatically go ssb. Okay. But that's the thing. If they have the ability to emit god Ki then they definitely would have the ability to not emit God Ki. Otherwise, if they didn't have the ability to emit God ki in the first place then they would always be either emitting God Ki or never be emitting God Ki at all. @Regardless the feats we've seen from mortal form Goku are on regular Ki. Okay. Agreed, they can be sensed in their mortal form by the others just like how they can sense the regular/normal Ki. But, it is for certain that post SSG/BOG arc Goku's (and by extension Vegeta's) regular Ki, based on your theory and statements/DBS Statements, has "upgraded/changed". It is without a doubt that Goku's and Vegeta's Ki after the BOG arc is different from the "regular Ki", but it can be still be sensed normally like the regular/normal Ki. So, the fact still remains that Goku's and Vegeta Ki, even though they still can be sensed like the traditional Ki, is different from the regular/normal Ki. In the sense that it has been "Upgraded/Changed/transformed". |
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Jul 27 2016, 11:12 PM Post #18 |
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魔王子
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Nope. It's just the term I use because it's the only official one around. And I'm not referring to this as a form, I'm referring to is as a state. Think Ultimate Gohan, if you will. Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jul 27 2016, 11:12 PM.
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| Timothy | Jul 28 2016, 03:01 AM Post #19 |
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You do realize whenever you get stronger in db your ki completely changes @theprince You either have God ki or mortal ki. Goku and Vegeta have gotten immensely stronger but retain mortal ki in these states And nope. Mismatched conditions. Ultimate state is something one transforms into. Evidence for this is when Gohan responded to elder kai who told him to power up as if he was going ssj to access the ultimate state. This is a completely different case. This is just their base power Edited by Timothy, Jul 28 2016, 03:03 AM.
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Jul 28 2016, 03:13 AM Post #20 |
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@You do realize whenever you get stronger in db your ki completely changes Oh! I am sorry but I never noticed that. Can you provide a statement of where that is ever mentioned in the manga or the source for that? |
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| Timothy | Jul 28 2016, 06:30 AM Post #21 |
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Vegeta post six months of whis training Goku when arrived on namek was described to feel like a completely different person i believe Also this happened with ultimate Gohan too. Now you gotta statement supporting base goku and vegeta ki is anything other than mortal even tho so far we've only had god ki and mortal ki introduced |
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| Tinny | Jul 28 2016, 01:58 PM Post #22 |
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I'm just gonna say if the two base theory isn't true, then Trunks, Freeza, Vegeta, a planet of good saiyans who haven't even unlocked ssj, a bear, Piccolo and a random robot all got beyond a state that Goku and Vegeta could not reach without either magic rituals or godly intervention. Forgive me if I find the idea of Goku and Vegeta being terrible trainers that can't do jack in terms of gains without Whis coming to help them hard to swallow. At this point the one base hypothesis only makes the main characters look incompetent, all that godly help and all they can do in base is match a saiyan who doesn't even know how to access ssj, and everyone else is already getting stronger than their ssjg form. Hell even Bulma is surpassing them apparently if Goku had to go ssj for Trunks as opposed to fighting entirely in base. Looks more like Goku is just coasting on ssjg and that Vegeta is so terrible that Piccolo can train with Gohan for a bit and get around the same level that Whis got to with literal divine intervention. I'm inclined to believe the base theory for that reason. I don't have the highest opinion of those two, but I'm pretty sure they're supposed to be better fighters than everyone else. Edited by Tinny, Jul 28 2016, 02:00 PM.
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| Timothy | Jul 29 2016, 01:53 AM Post #23 |
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So you admit to downplay and denial. I already addressed each character in the op New series new scaling So what the powerhouse of the first arc was surpassed Did it make sense when random namekian warriors were leagues above king Piccolo Or when chaotzu tien and Krillin surpassed Raditz because of Kami training when kami training couldn't make goku near Raditz with more time of training. I can on and on and on Trunks-Hybrid saiyan who has been fighting an ssg tier+ enemy for a year.. But noooo trunks cant be relevant in power but when the person he killed ( freeza) tortures some fodder(tagoma) for less time(4 months) and becomes ssb tier nobody bats an eyelash because freeza is a prodigy all of a sudden. But hybrid potential has been hyped since beginning of z Cabba is from a literally more evolved race of saiyans. This is the series where the current androids were stronger for no reason at all. So hard to believe a different universe has stronger fighters?U6 saiyans are constantly in combat as well. Frost is stronger than rof Freeza disregarding his golden form. Botamo has damage nullification hax and magetta is well a special case of shonen power inflation Question. Did you even read my whole thread..that theory is dead. All yall have is assumptions and denial. Sad because i bet the kids in Japan new to db are probably getting this all pretty easy. This stuff is so straight forward but forum ppl in denial holding onto their power houses of the past can't accept nothing Its like a character has to be a giant muscle for their in battle feats to be acknowledged. This is really ridiculous tinny. This downplay and denial is straight atrocious. Son you just gotta suck it up and face the power scaling. "Godly intervention" You know the only reason whis and Beerus are op is because of their lifespan and training. Are you forgetting Goku had "godly intervention" over and over and over 1)Kami His Kami gains were easily surpassed by others in less time later 2) King Kai His King kai gains are inferior to freeza soldiers like zarbon and the ginyu force 3)Whis His Whis gains are equal to rof final form freeza,assualt form frost,Cabba, and Maggetta it seems. For that is what the series gives us Your denial is based off the assumption nobody can be this strong without training from these gods. Which is visually proven wrong over and over and over and over and over my man. Look Tinny i used to believe in the theory small gaps and everything. But the more one reviews the material we've been given things change. I reviewed dbs material and came to this. One must review evidence without bias and without a premise based on assumption and putting a cap on new characters. Look the theme of db has basically been constant training and someone else is always gonna be stronger. U6 fighters being strong was foreshadowed at the end of the bog movie. "There are twelve other universes with even stronger fighters" So now that we're getting characters from different universes and timelines this downplay is really undeserved. Every instance of "godly intervention" has been over shadowed by power inflation Edited by Timothy, Jul 29 2016, 02:27 AM.
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| Tinny | Jul 29 2016, 02:46 AM Post #24 |
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What are you talking about? But fine I'll look. Frost is fine, Freeza is still stupid in that he managed to become god tier and vastly outstrip Goku's ki control by beating up Tagoma but whatever at that point. If they don't bring in a back story for Cabba, I assume that means it isn't important enough to show, meaning it's probably at best similar to what the main character experienced. Constant fighting doesn't really matter, the saiyans already were arguably in such a state, and an innate x10 boost isn't enough to cover the gap. And in the end, the important part here, the point of my post is that he got this strong without divine intervention, without ssj, unlike Goku and Vegeta. Why aren't we following him? Piccolo isn't an argument, you're just insulting the audience and saying he made large gains. That's obvious even if you go by the two base theory. You haven't actually explained how Piccolo got there. There is nothing to address here that makes it look any better that this guy got there by training with a scholar rather than a god. Why aren't we following this guy instead of the two schmucks who need divine intervention to keep up? He took it seriously enough that he brought out ssj, so Trunks is above godku according to you. Yes, and it's shown that if you don't keep it up you fall down hard, see Gohan. Mentioning that Freeza and Vegeta matched/surpassed Goku in a few months of training doesn't help your (i presume) case that god power is impressive within the context of the story. Also if you're seriously telling me that Trunks could do anything but die against an ssjg level opponent (much less escape, hide, and fight neck against him), then a Cell saga character exceeded ssjg level when he was busy rebuilding the world and occasionally training as opposed to two fighting geniuses. Again, Goku looks less like a great fighter and more like that one idiot that needs help from the teacher to keep up. Which is the point of my post. That's not an argument, that's still three characters that exceeded ssjg level through means that apparently are so mundane and unneeded that they don't need to be shown. Except maybe Hit since he was actually built up. So at the end, we have a list of characters that reached ssjg level with divine intervention with Goku Vegeta And a list of those who doesn't need it. Piccolo Cabba Botamo Hit Maggetta Possibly Gohan Freeza/Frost Trunks Black (assuming Trunks didn't get to ssjg level BEFORE Black showed up). Meanwhile your list of ridiculous gains extends into super by the fourth item, so that's just three examples through out Dragon Ball history your dredged up. Evidently ssjg Goku is the new concurrently surpassed standard, but that doesn't change that apparently the only one who needed ssjg to get there was Goku, and that the only ones who needed the gods to get there was Vegeta and Goku. At the end of this, they simply don't look impressive anymore, they look like the classroom idiots. I'm not going in depth as to the validity of it, mostly because it's late and I'm not that interested in debating this with someone who thinks calling me cancer is acceptable behaviour for any reason. If you want to believe Goku and Vegeta are pathetic fighters who can't train with any skill and have been babied through their lives, go ahead. I'm simply pointing out that the one base hypothesis all but outright states that, which is almost certainly against authorial intent. But hey, I consider Death of the Author valid and outright necessary in some cases, so it's your choice. What does muscle have to do with anything? What's your deal? You act like this down play stuff matters, and it's not like I see in db versus often so I don't see why you're upset. Unless I'm misreading you, you seem to have a personal vendetta against those who mention the two base theory. Why? And just one more time to make sure everyone understands. I'm simply pointing out that this one base hypothesis makes Goku and Vegeta look comparatively pathetic compared to everyone else. I'm not interested in debating the truth of this, besides ThePrinceOfSaiyajins seems to have summed it up fine. Edited by Tinny, Jul 29 2016, 02:48 AM.
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| Timothy | Jul 29 2016, 03:26 AM Post #25 |
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A backstory wasnt there for Raditz and saibamen. Both were superior to Gokus first "godly intervention" A backstory wasnt here for dodoria, zarbon,the ginyu force or nail All were superior to Gokus second "godly intervention" Now how many power explanations do we ever have in this series really. Because of power scaling regular humans plus gero technology could be above the legendary super saiyan . Regarding Cabba, you bring up the 10x boost cause your placing your own assumptions onto the implications of u6 saiyans evolving past oozaru. You're putting a number cap onto characters freshly introduced as if Toryama ever goes according to fan prediction and assumption. You're assumption of a character needing a backstory to be at a certain level is unsubstantiated downplay, you can't place rules on a series that aren't evidenced you're not Toryama. All a character needs is the in battle feats tbh. Too bad if that doesn't satisfy you. So many characters have been introduced who are in a different tier of power with little to no explanation. Cabbas strength is just a testement to the fact that whatever power predictions or caps you place onto him or other universe 6 saiyans or fighters of other timelines and universes is WRONG. Toryama made it be known that saiyans constantly increase power in battle and close gaps and that there are other universes with stronger fighters than universe seven. Piccolo being strong enough to peirce the same barrier that champas blast couldn't to champas dismay is a testament to the fact that Gohan and Piccolos training was very effective. Why would this third "godly intervention" be the unsurpassable one when it happened early in a new series and the in battle feats of the newly introduced characters contradict that notion. You're assumption goes against the theme of someone will always be stronger. Now the need of backstory was never the lifeline for this theme. But this theme persists. Piccolos sbc feat shows that he made large gains lmaooo. This is the same guy who went from below nappa to over nail in a few days with king kai. Same Guy who could beat down an ssj tier dr gero after training with goku before fusing with Kami. Him And Gohan obviously made gains from their training as evidenced by Piccolo in battle feats and barrier feat and evidenced by Gohan wanting to test his gains in the tournament but being prevented by his duties at work. Your whole divine intervention over play is really maddening. Every instance of divine intervention has been overplayed. Zamasu is equal to black. He's described as a kaoishin who trains. Kaoishin are said to be thousands of times stronger than namek freeza. Freezas rof gains substantiate the notion of a kaoishin being this tier or higher. Current Ssj2 Goku is superior to his ep 14 self. No way around that fact. So if trunks fights an enemy like black for a year and blacks strength was slowly reaching its current level it leaves potential for trunks to be in a relevant tier. Ssg is the power house of the first arc that soon becomes a surpassable standard by easier means later on. Just like gokus kami gains, just like radits level of power, just like gokus king kai gains, just like gokus ginyu gains, his ssj gains,etc. Al require no backstory. You seriously think this is the only "godly intervention" Face it ssg goku level is just the early benchmark to dbs like planet busting was to dbz. Ssg is just a multiplier and the original ssg probably wasnt even that strong. The theme of "someone's always gonna be stronger" persists. You ask me what i have against Yall.. Its the fact that yall are obsessed with head cannon and placing nonexistent unsubstantiated caps on new characters and defiling this theme while i am obsessed with its maintenance and what the cannon material shows to us without a personal bias without an unsupported cap on new characters because of personal dissatisfaction to an absent backstory. My op stands undebunked and the only thing that opposes the cannon material and supports this theory pushing is personal dissatisfaction with character portrayal so one denies in battle feats, makes assumption and makes things far to complicated. It completely ignores past new tier precedents and all the times where web had a new hyped level of power or result of "godly intervention" surpassed later constantly and easier without backstory. Base Goku and Vegeta operate solely on mortal ki. Ssj transformations still stack and multiply. Therefore if someone can fight unsuppressed base goku or vegeta they are superior to the same levels of power Goku and Vegeta are. There is no new rule about a backstory being needed at this level of power and even so we have sufficient support for most characters at this tier. Look at the precedents and the current evidence. Personal bias begone In battle feats Cabba fights a saiyan who is over ep 14 Goku and rof goku. Controversial feat but same series where a regular human can be amped by technology and surpass ssj by a large margin(in the manga ssj trunks<future gohan base<ssj future Gohan<50% androids. The future androids are stronger. Forms are just multipliers and new tiers are always becoming overshadowed quickly. Its because of the theme of someone will always be stronger). Cabba is from another universe and from a further evolved species. This combined with in battle feats is enough to solidify his power placement Frosts performance against base goku solidifies his power placement. Botamo in battle feat is being able to nullify damage from ppl on gokus level. But Goku could easily wrestle him down and get past his hax and be over him in every stat. Magetta has the in battle feat of using tactics to Create an environmental disadvantage for an enemy on ssj Vegeta level and durability to take his attacks but weakness to insults. No backstory needed. Battle talks. Db has never been thr flashback hub anyway. New series new scaling newer Stronger characters. How is it hard to believe the newer "Stronger" fighters introduced in the third saga are beyond the immediately surpassed power house of just the first saga. Your"godly intervention" overplay has been debunked as well And no. They don't power up into their base states like the ultimate form. Mismatched conditions/correlation fallacy on the princes part. No evidence for that notion either. And i guess post second godly intervention goku(post king kai) is pathetic because he could only match the saiyan elite vegeta who had no "godly intervention" Edited by Timothy, Jul 29 2016, 04:05 AM.
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