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Goku's character in Super
Topic Started: Jul 9 2016, 09:47 PM (20,516 Views)
breaker335
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So we just gonna ignore Goku's big sacrifice to save the Earth and him deciding it was best for the Earth that he stayed dead? The most heroic deed he's ever done?
Edited by breaker335, Jul 15 2016, 07:58 AM.
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breaker335
Jul 15 2016, 07:57 AM
So we just gonna ignore Goku's big sacrifice to save the Earth and him deciding it was best for the Earth that he stayed dead? The most heroic deed he's ever done?
His reasoning for staying dead didn't even make sense. He claims he attracted too many bad guys, but only Raditz (and by extension Vegeta/Nappa) came to Earth because of him, and they'd still be evil in other parts of the universe if not for him.

You could also say the androids were because of him, but if not for him the RRA would still have control on the world anyway.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Whether directly or indirectly almost everyone that attacked the Earth was because of him somehow. Raditz personally came for him which then indirectly lead to Nappa and Vegeta arriving. Freeza came to Earth to kill him and Cell was created to kill him. A lot of the villains who do show up, do so because of Goku's actions. He realized that many of the villains who attack the Earth do so because they have some kind of beef with him.

Now that Gohan's strong enough, he can let him be the protector when the time comes (good work on that) and leave the planet essentially. Goku believed and he had little reason not to, that he was just a magnet for all the bad guys who were attacking the Earth now. This would not lessen evil in the universe but it would give villains less incentive to come to Earth and hurt his friends and family trying to get to him.
Edited by EMIYA, Jul 15 2016, 11:28 AM.
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It makes even less sense when you realise that the androids still existed in the future despite the fact Goku died before they were even activated. If a villain truly wants to kill Goku, they'll still end up on Earth, and by the time they find out he's already dead does he really think they'll just politely leave?
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I noticed my grammatical problem in my last post. I meant to say this would "NOT" lessen evil in the universe.

Do you think Gero knew that though? It's not like he knew Goku died so he would still have every reason to activate the cyborgs in his quest to kill him.

And honesty yes, if a villain wanted to kill Goku and realized he wasn't on Earth, they'd have much more incentive to leave. Why waste time standing around a dingy little third rock from the star?

Every villain came essentially because of Goku, in an almost domino effect.

Gero wanted to get revenge on Goku and created the cyborgs which eventually lead to both Cell and Trunks' Future....with Cell personally wanting to fight Goku himself. Even the cyborgs in the present time, though thankfully much nicer, wanted to personally kill Goku.

Raditz arrived to see Goku and this lead to Vegeta and Nappa arriving, killing all of Goku's friends and then they had to go to Namek which then lead to Freeza now coming to Earth. Which then lead to Gero getting data on Freeza to improve Cell.

Even someone like Piccolo Junior was born out of King Piccolo's desire for revenge on Goku.

This doesn't mean that if Goku isn't around, none of this stuff will ever happen. But Goku definitely feels that if he wasn't around, these villains would have had less incentive to attack the Earth.

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ekrolo2
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I always figured Goku's reasoning for staying dead is that he felt bad for putting his own fighting boner above stopping the threat so he didn't trust himself NOT to repeat the same mistake again. Not specifically because he attracts threats, but that he allows them to escalate when they shouldn't. Of course, the Boo Saga takes a big old s*** on this potential development but in the context of the Cell Saga, I think it's a plausible interpretation.
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To me, Goku briefly visits his old persona in early and mid Z a few times in Super. Against Beerus, I believe he was concerned that Beerus attempted to use Earth as leverage for Goku to fight at full power. Again, when Goku actively saves Gohan from Frieza (I can't recall it he felt remorseful at Piccolo's death). And once again when he stopped Copy-Vegeta from harming Goten, and Trunks I believe.

So even part of his old self had vanished he retains a few characteristics from Z to a small degree. I guess Toriyama couldn't completely change him to this mindless Saiyan that loves fighting solely. A warrior he's trying to portray shouldn't harbor feelings that dictate he has to save a life or be selfless at times to the point he regretted not ending Frieza when the chance surfaced and indirectly was responsablfor Earth's destruction in the RoF saga.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Well let's be honest, how many characters in Super can you name that are actual improvements over their previous incarnations? Like seriously how many? Really how many characters you say were improved in the Boo Arc?

Although there was a lot of improvements and characterizations all the way up until the Cell Arc, once the Boo Arc came along, everyone either remained the same or took a huge nose dive in character quality. The only person I think who improved as a character was Mr. Satan. His incarnation in the Boo Arc is honestly one of my favorite characters because he really develops.

Some try to say Vegeta did but...seriously he did that in the Cell Arc and while it was good there, doing it here was nothing more than a repeat to be used as a tool.

So forget Goku, really tell me, how many characters in Super would you say are better incarnations than what we saw earlier? I think a lot of them fell hard, Goku's probably just the worst of the bunch.
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I'd say Bulma is somewhat improved.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Out of curiosity, how would you say Bulma has improved? Not disagreeing, just wondering.
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Well at least from the Pilaf Saga-Cell Saga.

Original series Bulma was a big whiner and very selfish. She'd constantly make statements that implied she'd dumb Yamcha for someone hotter at a moments notice. She was just generally your typical "spoilt teenage girl".

Saiyan saga Bulma wasn't too bad, but we saw very little of her.

Freeza saga Bulma went back to whining, although I guess in this case it's a little more understandable. I never understood why she was so bitchy with Gohan and Krillin on the trip to Namek though.

Andorid saga Bulma was just stupid. She wanted to see both Freeza and the Androids, in the latter case even putting her baby in danger for it.

Boo saga Bulma is also fine, and I guess Super is like Boo saga Bulma but with a bigger role.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Fair enough. I was speaking in relative sense of the Boo Arc (the previous incarnations basically) compared to Super.

The way I've seen it.

Goku developed as a character all the way until the Cell Arc (with a few minor bumps at the end) and then took a huge nose dive in characterization when it came to Boo and Super.

Vegeta developed as a character all the way up until the Cell Arc, then has taken a very uncertain and rocky points during Boo and Super.

Piccolo also developed all the way up until the Cell Arc and in his case, remained relatively stagnant in Boo and Super.

Gohan just as the others, developed as a character all the way up until the Cell Arc, than started taking a nose dive as this lazy, unskilled kid which hit rock bottom when Super came around.

When you have someone like Piccolo who has probably gone through all the development he's going to go through, there's not much problem if he remains rather stagnant or doesn't change. But when you have to regress a lot of the characters that's when it becomes a problem.
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EMIYA
Jul 15 2016, 05:20 PM
Well let's be honest, how many characters in Super can you name that are actual improvements over their previous incarnations? Like seriously how many? Really how many characters you say were improved in the Boo Arc?

Although there was a lot of improvements and characterizations all the way up until the Cell Arc, once the Boo Arc came along, everyone either remained the same or took a huge nose dive in character quality. The only person I think who improved as a character was Mr. Satan. His incarnation in the Boo Arc is honestly one of my favorite characters because he really develops.

Some try to say Vegeta did but...seriously he did that in the Cell Arc and while it was good there, doing it here was nothing more than a repeat to be used as a tool.

So forget Goku, really tell me, how many characters in Super would you say are better incarnations than what we saw earlier? I think a lot of them fell hard, Goku's probably just the worst of the bunch.
I didn't say he improved I'm just saying, not every single instance has him being a brainless fighting maniac. A few of these hero qualities still burn in him in serious situations.
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G.G.
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EMIYA
Jul 15 2016, 05:42 PM
Fair enough. I was speaking in relative sense of the Boo Arc (the previous incarnations basically) compared to Super.

The way I've seen it.

Goku developed as a character all the way until the Cell Arc (with a few minor bumps at the end) and then took a huge nose dive in characterization when it came to Boo and Super.

Vegeta developed as a character all the way up until the Cell Arc, then has taken a very uncertain and rocky points during Boo and Super.

Piccolo also developed all the way up until the Cell Arc and in his case, remained relatively stagnant in Boo and Super.

Gohan just as the others, developed as a character all the way up until the Cell Arc, than started taking a nose dive as this lazy, unskilled kid which hit rock bottom when Super came around.

When you have someone like Piccolo who has probably gone through all the development he's going to go through, there's not much problem if he remains rather stagnant or doesn't change. But when you have to regress a lot of the characters that's when it becomes a problem.
The thing about the Buu arc is that everything was lighthearted and it didn't take itself too seriously. I know that Dragon Ball is a comedy but I would had liked a smoother transition from comedy to action and the comedy just seemed off putting than funny.
Edited by G.G., Jul 17 2016, 01:16 AM.
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Darker
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The whole franchise is silly, full with ridiculous concepts and characters. Just because the Boo saga took itself slightly less seriously that doesn't mean it's way worse than the 3 previous sagas. Same goes for GT, it's still pretty good despite its flaws. Super on the other hand isn't funny or ridiculous, it's not entertaining in the slightest, just retarded and obnoxious.
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Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?!

Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power.
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