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Goku's character in Super
Topic Started: Jul 9 2016, 09:47 PM (20,517 Views)
G.G.
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If everything gets destroyed, there would no place left to fight in.
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DBZAOTA482
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Like Clearin said, they went overboard with the whole "caring about nothing but fighting" stuff and made him lose a bunch of brain cells... which wouldn't be so bad if not for the fact we're supposed to root for this man(child).
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Darker
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The Lord of the Dark

He's not even that good of a fighter anymore. No creativity or tactics to fight an opponent (at least not by using his brain), and he's really slow when it comes to martial arts. I don't know if that's him or part of Super's sloppy animation. Probably Super's animation.
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Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?!

Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power.
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G.G.
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Darker
Jul 13 2016, 04:16 PM
He's not even that good of a fighter anymore. No creativity or tactics to fight an opponent (at least not by using his brain), and he's really slow when it comes to martial arts. I don't know if that's him or part of Super's sloppy animation. Probably Super's animation.
To be fair, it isn't limited to Goku as the supposed tactician Vegeta and Piccolo also don't use their brains either.
Edited by G.G., Jul 14 2016, 06:57 PM.
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+ Clearin
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I think Dragon Ball characters skill is supposed to be more subtle, and is just their ability to read their opponents and counter their attacks, and find openings for the right time to hit an opponent and all that jazz. Not like a lot of anime that will have a character do a single thing and then take the rest of the episode to explain why it was so super special smart and awesome.
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Tinny
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To be fair, there isn't allot of that either, there's Vegeta and the Androids for example, but Goku hasn't had anything comparable here, hell if you just look at the Yellow trailer for rwby I can see more tactics being used by Yang in what amounts to a bar brawl than anything Goku has done in his battle with a god (in fact I found his tactics quite idiotic to be perfectly honest, who let's a fight go so easily underwater?). There's subtle, and then there's just not having a strategy or tactics at all. I mean hell, in U6 with ssjgssjkkx10 it's done pretty much exactly like your example, he does a thing and then they talk about why that's impressive (rather than leading up to it intelligently).
They're not subtle in the least, not that I've seen anyway, Count Dooku from TCW tv show (cgi) or Yang in the RWBY Yellow trailer fit that idea of subtlety perfectly, DBS on the other hand doesn't have it period, and when they do something truly tactical, it's either pointing out the obvious, Beerus leaving himself open again, or literally the whole "do one thing and talk about it after the fact."
Edited by Tinny, Jul 14 2016, 06:50 PM.
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lazerbem
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Clearin
Jul 14 2016, 06:40 PM
I think Dragon Ball characters skill is supposed to be more subtle, and is just their ability to read their opponents and counter their attacks, and find openings for the right time to hit an opponent and all that jazz. Not like a lot of anime that will have a character do a single thing and then take the rest of the episode to explain why it was so super special smart and awesome.
"How did you do that?"
"Oh, that was my special ability, time skip. However, I can only do it for 0.1 seconds, and if you get strong enough you can negate it. Also, while it improves over time, it improves slowly. I got this ability by..."

Find out next, on Dragon Bleach Super!

All jokes aside, the way that Hit hitting vital points was so emphasized is bizarre. Hitting vitals shouldn't be anything special if they're that skilled.

I don't think that shoddy animation should be blamed for lack of skill though, even if BOG looks much better.
Edited by lazerbem, Jul 14 2016, 06:52 PM.
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Tinny
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I guess that's true in regards to animation, but it's hard to pull that subtle skill off with limited animation. You just end up making Beerus look like an idiot that can't grasp that Goku hasn't lost power.
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lazerbem
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Yeah, but that's a choreography issue. I agree that that looks bad, but stuff like their punches and movements looking really stiff I don't think should be counted against them. Beers getting trolled is a point against him, but I meant other instances not counting against skill.
Edited by lazerbem, Jul 14 2016, 07:29 PM.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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I'd argue the choreography can be used in arguments. If we're told that they are master martial artists, then we should expect that kind of caliber of skill on display... I think I've shared my opinion elsewhere, but they literally run into one another and wail their arms and legs... it doesn't help that pressure point based fighting is something that is worth mentioning.

Edit: For master martial artists, you'd think that'd be the norm.
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Jul 14 2016, 07:46 PM.
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Tinny
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I think I'm in the middle to a degree, I think they should generally try to portray this supposed skill, but at the same time they can be limited.

I suppose as an example, Yoda is kind of just the ataru basics taken to the nth degree when you really look at and study his form, but at the same time, one should not take their stage fencing as indicative of their true skill, otherwise almost everyone in these things is a moron. If they do something that actually looks skilled and it's not commented on in any way, I think I can normally take that as a representation over their more "cinematic" flourishes.

Dragon Ball however still has none of that I feel, they almost never if ever showcase any more skill beyond punching someone in the face harder.

Edit: another way to put it in regards to DBS is they never ever show or explain what these fights are supposed to look like in universe without the cinematics or in this case cost saving measures.
Edited by Tinny, Jul 14 2016, 08:10 PM.
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* Ketchup Revenge
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

Goku's personification in Super is very close to the way that Toriyama always wanted him portrayed, so Goku isn't so much "out-of-character" as much as he is just what Toriyama always wanted him seen as. Toriyama even stated in an interview that he didn't like the way that Toei tried to make Goku into some hero. He always imaged Goku as a simple minded fool who loved to fight, and nothing more. Being a hero had never been on Goku's mind.

The whole feel of Super goes back to the original Dragon Ball days. Goku matured in Dragonball Z, but he was never happy being the one that everyone relied on to beat the bad guys.

Piccolo even stated at the end of DBZ with Oob that Goku was happier than he'd been in a long time when he took off.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Here's the problem.

Maybe Toei Animation exemplified Goku's heroic nature but Toriyama definitely instigated it. By the time we get to the 23rd Budokai, Goku has matured not just in appearance but as a character. He is more heroic. Until he meets Freeza, there wasn't one guy he didn't show mercy to or be outraged when someone...being Vegeta really, killed them.

He spared Piccolo,Nappa,Vegeta and every one of the Ginyu Squad. He would have spared Freeza had the guy not pushed him to the edge. You can get more heroic than sparing the life of the guy who has murdered your friend (who you believe can't even be brought back) and has done everything to make your life a living hell and transformed you into a state where you are nearly consumed by rage.

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This is a bad translation right? Goku isn't saying he's going to defeat Freeza for the sake of all the Saiyans and Nameks he's killed. Something a Hero would say. He must be saying something like "Freeza, get ready cause I can't wait to fight you! It's going to be awesome!"

This "Not Hero" went as far as to give the bloodthirsty Saiyan Prince a proper burial while previously listen to him weep his sad little tale.

Goku went out of his way to move away from populated areas when fighting the cyborgs. He was pissed when No. 20 started killing everyone and he punched him in the face for it.

He was shocked when Cell began killing members of the army. He didn't say "Calm down Gohan, no matter how many people Cell kills, we an fix it."

He was like "Oh my s*** Cell, have you no mercy!?" Had to go out of his way to find a new guardian so they could get new dragon balls so they could fix everything.

So when I hear things like "Toriyama didn't want Goku to be a hero and disliked how Toei Animation envisioned him..." I ask again...did you read your manga Toriyama? The reason he's probably such a hero in the anime is because you made him such a hero in the manga. You made him into this enlightened, merciful, protect the Earth, fight villains, be loved by everyone you meet guy who on more than one occasion has selflessly sacrificed his own life.

It's no shock that Toei exemplified these heroic natures in the anime when you, Toriyama have clearly presented Goku in a very heroic light.
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lazerbem
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It's worth noting he was still excited to fight Freeza, but it was secondary in terms of desire. I believe he mentions it under his breath once or twice, but generally speaking, his main motivations are still all good(see how pissed he gets when Freeza mentions Krillin mockingly)
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+ Clearin
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I don't think Goku getting mad because Freeza killed his best friend makes him a "hero" though. That's just a case of a guy being hurt because something personal happened to him.

The line about fighting Freeza for the Namekians and Saiyans is heroic, though maybe a little out of character.

Goku is not really shown to be that heroic, and it's clear fighting is the primary thing on his mind. He let 3 VERY dangerous people live (Piccolo, Vegeta and Freeza) all for the purpose of being able to fight them again.

He didn't want Freeza to kill Vegeta, not because it was a mean thing to do, but because he wanted to fight Vegeta.

Goku's excitement to fight Freeza was definitely at the top of his list on his way to Namek. He even ignored Kaio's orders to run away because he wanted to fight him.

Not that Goku is a bad guy in the manga. But he's no Superman.
Edited by Clearin, Jul 15 2016, 07:07 AM.
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