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Two base theory thinking
Topic Started: Jul 7 2016, 01:29 AM (7,729 Views)
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what i just cant get is that how could goku still use ssj3 against Trunks ?

I mean is that still inferior to ssjb right?... then the multipliers must be like 1.1 1.11 1.12 between ssj and ssj3 ...if ssjb is the best

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ekrolo2
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The only proper response to the two base theory:

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魔王子

Skywalker
Jul 7 2016, 02:20 PM
It makes the most sense, but if that's the case, they really need to make it known if he's using Goki ki in base. Maybe an aura change or something, it just makes everything stupidly confusing otherwise.
Yeah, I'd like it if it were more clear, but logically speaking, how in the flying f*** could Trunks keep up with a Super Saiyan 2 on top of Goku's new base form? I mean, with Piccolo in the God Selection Tournament, you could argue oh it's Piccolo making massive gains like he always does after training with Gohan. Trunks tho? He really has no reason to be that strong, especially when you realize he's never met Beerus or Whis.
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ekrolo2
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jul 7 2016, 02:54 PM
Skywalker
Jul 7 2016, 02:20 PM
It makes the most sense, but if that's the case, they really need to make it known if he's using Goki ki in base. Maybe an aura change or something, it just makes everything stupidly confusing otherwise.
Yeah, I'd like it if it were more clear, but logically speaking, how in the flying f*** could Trunks keep up with a Super Saiyan 2 on top of Goku's new base form? I mean, with Piccolo in the God Selection Tournament, you could argue oh it's Piccolo making massive gains like he always does after training with Gohan. Trunks tho? He really has no reason to be that strong, especially when you realize he's never met Beerus or Whis.
Even Piccolo is really hard to swallow. If just a few months of practice with a good sparring partner lets him get THAT strong, then the guy could've done the same during the 7-year gap and get strong enough to kill Boo. It's too much of a leap as the series treats Piccolo as essentially being tapped out once he exits the ROSAT for the Cell Games.
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Trunks was too busy running away from Black to do any serious training. Before that, he was able to match Dabra, but solo training for a year or two (shouldn't even get as much of a boost as he did in the Cell Saga because he didn't have any special training conditions) shouldn't do anything for him. With Piccolo, at least, he was able to train with Gohan, but Trunks had no-one and a bunch of other major concerns to come along with it too.
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孫悟空

Nagito Komaeda
Jul 7 2016, 03:23 PM
Trunks was too busy running away from Black to do any serious training. Before that, he was able to match Dabra, but solo training for a year or two (shouldn't even get as much of a boost as he did in the Cell Saga because he didn't have any special training conditions) shouldn't do anything for him. With Piccolo, at least, he was able to train with Gohan, but Trunks had no-one and a bunch of other major concerns to come along with it too.
The only training he had was from the Supreme Kai.
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Omega Z
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I don't buy the two base theory, I think if Goku channeled his God Ki in his base form he would turn Super Saiyan Red, as shown in chapter 13 of the Dragon Ball Super manga.

I've also just excepted that Dragon Ball Super isn't going fully explain (or explain at all) why certain characters are as strong as they are.
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ekrolo2
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Omega Zee
Jul 7 2016, 03:43 PM
I don't buy the two base theory, I think if Goku channeled his God Ki in his base form he would turn Super Saiyan Red, as shown in chapter 13 of the Dragon Ball Super manga.

I've also just excepted that Dragon Ball Super isn't going fully explain (or explain at all) why certain characters are as strong as they are.
I wouldn't use the manga for proof with the anime. The two are distinctly different from one another. The manga treats their (Goku and Vegeta's) base forms as still being weaker than a Piccolo who's barely if at all stronger than his Cell Games self while the anime clearly showed Goku taking on a considerably more powerful final form Freeza in base.
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孫悟空

Omega Zee
Jul 7 2016, 03:43 PM
I don't buy the two base theory, I think if Goku channeled his God Ki in his base form he would turn Super Saiyan Red, as shown in chapter 13 of the Dragon Ball Super manga.

I've also just excepted that Dragon Ball Super isn't going fully explain (or explain at all) why certain characters are as strong as they are.
Didn't you read my opening post man? I never said that Goku's saiyan beyond god form was using god ki. It's just a form Goku was using to access the power of Super Saiyan Red. But later shown in the manga we see that he was able to actually transform into Super Saiyan Red gaining it's assets and abilities. The only saiyan forms that use god ki is Super Saiyan Red and Super Saiyan Blue.
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I'm mostly apathetic about Super's power levels, but the so-called "two base" theory (which is a misleading name if you ask me) seems to make the most sense to me. I don't know why some people are so adamantly (and often rudely) opposed to it, since Super doesn't bother to explain diddly squat, so it's basically open season on fan-theories.


Here's how I understand it to work, or at least my minimal-effort way of making sense of it...


* [ NO GOD-KI ] — Goku's normal base and Super Saiyan 1-3 forms, presumably only moderately stronger than before he became a god to fight Beerus.

* [ SOME GOD-KI ] — Goku can use some godly ki to enhance his normal power, usually just his base. He can still be sensed on some level but is much stronger than normal, already trumping almost everyone from the Majin Boo arc.

* [ MOST GOD-KI ] — The red-haired Super Saiyan God form. Goku taps into most of his godly ki while still in just his base form, which transforms his body into the kinda-unstable godly form he had against Beerus. His godly ki has almost fully replaced and overwritten his normal ki in this state, so he can no longer be sensed by mortals.

* [ ALL GOD-KI ] — Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan / Super Saiyan Blue. Goku uses Super Saiyan to tap into 100% of his godly ki reserves, and even push it a little farther and stronger than the red-haired SSG form. The godly ki completely "takes over" and eclipses his normal power, so he can't be sensed.



So I don't think of it like a "switch" for his god-ki that he can completely turn on or off and that's it. Instead, in my eyes it's more like a mixture of different liquids, like alcohol content in a drink or something. Goku's "beyond-god" base form may be 90% normal ki and 10% godly ki, but that godly ki is so damn potent that it shoots his power level far above normal.

The Super Saiyan forms don't factor into it much other than serving as better conduits for the god-power, since Goku seems to need the full Super Saiyan Blue transformation to be at his strongest, but it doesn't seem at all to be a big 50x boost over SSG.
Edited by Kaboom, Jul 7 2016, 05:29 PM.
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Judau Ashtha
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Lol, I just found out about this theory from this Topic. And the funny thing is that I was bored a few hours back and then I decided to created this rough power level list type thingy based on this theory. So, is this how the Two Base theory works? I am still not certain of how this theory works completely. (Note, the numbers are taken random and for simplicity),



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superperfectnerd
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ekrolo2
Jul 7 2016, 02:58 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jul 7 2016, 02:54 PM
Skywalker
Jul 7 2016, 02:20 PM
It makes the most sense, but if that's the case, they really need to make it known if he's using Goki ki in base. Maybe an aura change or something, it just makes everything stupidly confusing otherwise.
Yeah, I'd like it if it were more clear, but logically speaking, how in the flying f*** could Trunks keep up with a Super Saiyan 2 on top of Goku's new base form? I mean, with Piccolo in the God Selection Tournament, you could argue oh it's Piccolo making massive gains like he always does after training with Gohan. Trunks tho? He really has no reason to be that strong, especially when you realize he's never met Beerus or Whis.
Even Piccolo is really hard to swallow. If just a few months of practice with a good sparring partner lets him get THAT strong, then the guy could've done the same during the 7-year gap and get strong enough to kill Boo. It's too much of a leap as the series treats Piccolo as essentially being tapped out once he exits the ROSAT for the Cell Games.
It does essentially mean that these guys who are meant to be the universe's strongest fighters and experts at getting stronger must have really been slacking in Z. I men Goku hit his limit in the Cell arc as well, I know Gohan surpassed him but that's never stopped him from wanting to be the best he himself could be before. the only conclusion I have as to why Goku and Gohan didn't train more for Cell is they must have hit their wall. Then Goku had new methods from Otherworld training to get stronger and even then didn't get much stronger, he just found new transformations. Now all of that is put to shame by Piccolo and Frieza because they had sparring partners for a few months?

You can argue that characters have gotten stronger rapidly before but Goku has never hit a wall like that before the Cell games. On Namek there was zenkai abuse, hidden power unlocks and Namekian fusion for these power ups and after that we had ROSAT and fusion. By the end of Z they had seemingly struggled against the greatest foes in the universe to get their power and yet Piccolo could have been God level all along by training with Gohan for a few months?

The two base theory is the only thing that makes sense.
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ekrolo2
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Kaboom
Jul 7 2016, 05:17 PM
I'm mostly apathetic about Super's power levels, but the so-called "two base" theory (which is a misleading name if you ask me) seems to make the most sense to me. I don't know why some people are so adamantly (and often rudely) opposed to it, since Super doesn't bother to explain diddly squat, so it's basically open season on fan-theories.


Here's how I understand it to work, or at least my minimal-effort way of making sense of it...


* [ NO GOD-KI ] — Goku's normal base and Super Saiyan 1-3 forms, presumably only moderately stronger than before he became a god to fight Beerus.

* [ SOME GOD-KI ] — Goku can use some godly ki to enhance his normal power, usually just his base. He can still be sensed on some level but is much stronger than normal, already trumping almost everyone from the Majin Boo arc.

* [ MOST GOD-KI ] — The red-haired Super Saiyan God form. Goku taps into most of his godly ki while still in just his base form, which transforms his body into the kinda-unstable godly form he had against Beerus. His godly ki has almost fully replaced and overwritten his normal ki in this state, so he can no longer be sensed by mortals.

* [ ALL GOD-KI ] — Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan / Super Saiyan Blue. Goku uses Super Saiyan to tap into 100% of his godly ki reserves, and even push it a little farther and stronger than the red-haired SSG form. The godly ki completely "takes over" and eclipses his normal power, so he can't be sensed.



So I don't think of it like a "switch" for his god-ki that he can completely turn on or off and that's it. Instead, in my eyes it's more like a mixture of different liquids, like alcohol content in a drink or something. Goku's "beyond-god" base form may be 90% normal ki and 10% godly ki, but that godly ki is so damn potent that it shoots his power level far above normal.

The Super Saiyan forms don't factor into it much other than serving as better conduits for the god-power, since Goku seems to need the full Super Saiyan Blue transformation to be at his strongest, but it doesn't seem at all to be a big 50x boost over SSG.
You answered your own question as to why people don't like the theory: it's so pointlessly convoluted. I honestly don't think there's a single instance of power related stuff in Dragon Ball that's as needlessly convoluted as the God Ki thing.
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Omega Z
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SSbardock84
Jul 7 2016, 04:39 PM
Omega Zee
Jul 7 2016, 03:43 PM
I don't buy the two base theory, I think if Goku channeled his God Ki in his base form he would turn Super Saiyan Red, as shown in chapter 13 of the Dragon Ball Super manga.

I've also just excepted that Dragon Ball Super isn't going fully explain (or explain at all) why certain characters are as strong as they are.
Didn't you read my opening post man? I never said that Goku's saiyan beyond god form was using god ki. It's just a form Goku was using to access the power of Super Saiyan Red. But later shown in the manga we see that he was able to actually transform into Super Saiyan Red gaining it's assets and abilities. The only saiyan forms that use god ki is Super Saiyan Red and Super Saiyan Blue.
I'm going to have to apologize on my part, I only tip-toed through you're post while reading it because I was sleepy at the time, sorry about that.


So what you're saying is that the 'Saiyan Beyond God' form is basically a non-mastered Super Saiyan Red?
That seems like a decent explanation, but that raises more questions than answers.
Like how could have Goku mastered Super Saiyan Blue (he attained Super Saiyan Blue by mastering his control of his God Ki) before he mastered Super Saiyan Red?
Or how would you be able to tap into Super Saiyan Red powers without using God Ki, when the Super Saiyan Red form completely relies on the usage of God Ki?
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Omega Z
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ekrolo2
Jul 7 2016, 03:57 PM
Omega Zee
Jul 7 2016, 03:43 PM
I don't buy the two base theory, I think if Goku channeled his God Ki in his base form he would turn Super Saiyan Red, as shown in chapter 13 of the Dragon Ball Super manga.

I've also just excepted that Dragon Ball Super isn't going fully explain (or explain at all) why certain characters are as strong as they are.
I wouldn't use the manga for proof with the anime. The two are distinctly different from one another. The manga treats their (Goku and Vegeta's) base forms as still being weaker than a Piccolo who's barely if at all stronger than his Cell Games self while the anime clearly showed Goku taking on a considerably more powerful final form Freeza in base.
The anime and manga are different, yes, but they are two branches from the tree that is Dragon Ball Super; if Toriyama saw something he didn't approve of, he could probably tell Toei or Toyotarou to take it out.

As for the Piccolo being stronger than Goku and Vegeta in the manga, could you provide some proof for that?
I remember Piccolo being implied to be FAR below base Goku and Vegeta in the manga, just as in the anime.
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