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Super Episode 50 (3 July 2016)
Topic Started: Jul 3 2016, 12:29 AM (15,720 Views)
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魔王子

And we learned nothing! Well, aside from the fact that Mai is alive. Black does destroy Trunks's time machine tho, but Bulma remembers the one that Cell came back in time in, so they still have one in reserve! Also, we have a new ending song. It's garbage, but the ending sequence is cool tho.
EDIT: Summary
Herms
 
Goku Black has arrived in the present via a strange portal. He notes to himself that Trunks travelled through time to this point, then greets Goku and notes the presence of Vegeta and even the God of Destruction Beerus.

Meanwhile, Beerus and Whis’ attention is drawn to the strange ring Black wears on his right hand. Trunks demands to know how Black got here, and Black explains that he followed the path Trunks took through time and space.

Black mockingly asks if Trunks called for him, and if Trunks wants to die by his hands. Vegeta warns Trunks against fighting Black, saying he’s no match, but before Vegeta himself can challenge Black, Goku flies up to fight him (noting that the early bird gets the worm). He’s heard all about how strong Black is and wants to see for himself!

Black likewise says this is an “honor”: he’d wanted to trying fighting Goku in “this body”. Goku wonders what he means by that, but Black says he doesn’t need to know. On the sidelines, Kuririn wonders who Black is, and Bulma explains that he’s her murderer! This naturally leaves Kuririn even more confused than before.

Goku, still in his base form, trades blows with Black for a little while before finally becoming a Super Saiyan (though we see sparks, the characters only refer to this as “Super Saiyan” and not SS2). Black is thrilled to see such power, and Goku can tell that Black is like him: they both get excited to fight against strong opponents. At this point, Black’s ki rises, and he tells Goku to show him more of his power.

The fight continues, and on the sidelines Kuririn says that Black’s power keeps on rising. Trunks wonders why Goku isn’t using the same power as he did earlier in their sparring match (onscreen we get a quick flashback to SS3 Goku blocking Trunks’ sword). Vegeta explains that Goku has a bad habit of not fighting seriously at the start. Likewise, in the battle itself Goku and Black both note how neither of them is using their full power. Elsewhere, Beerus and Whis say Black isn’t half bad, though oddly his ki doesn’t quite feel the same as Goku’s.

At this point, Goku decides he needs to fight hard enough to force Black to use his full power. The fight recommences and Black takes a beating, but oddly he still seems happy about this, declaring that this pain will make him even stronger. Goku meanwhile thinks that Black is kind of gross. Kuririn notes that Black’s power has risen yet again, and as Goku and Black go at it some more, Trunks’ time machine is knocked over from the impact. Black notices the device and hears Trunks refer to it as a time machine, realizing that this is how Trunks travelled through time.

Black blows up the time machine, but shortly thereafter gets pulled back through the portal he came from. The portal closes, and Black is gone, but the time machine is in flames. Whis explains that Black most likely didn’t vanish on his own. Rather, Black was able to come to this era when the power of his “Time Ring” (the strange ring on his right hand) reacted to the distortions in time created by Trunks’ time machine’s passage through time and space. However, these distortions try and return to their original state, similar to the way a wound heals, and so as a result Black’s Time Ring forcibly pulled him back to the era he came from. In other words, Whis says, he basically just ran out of time.

Indeed, we see that Black has now returned to Trunks’ future world. Lying on the ground in some degree of fatigue and pain, Black says that Super Saiyan Goku’s fighting style has been “engraved” into his body, which will make his strength even more perfect. Though Black thinks he won’t be able to return to that era (ie the present) again, Trunks likewise is stuck there now that his time machine is no more, meaning that in the future world none remain to oppose him.

Back in the present, Trunks is having the same thoughts: now that he’s stuck here, there’s nobody in the future world to stop Black from wiping out the remaining Earthlings. When asked how Black’s power when fighting Goku compares with when Trunks fought Black on prior occasions, Trunks says that Black was “a little stronger” than before. A little, not a lot…probably. In that case, Vegeta thinks they’ve got nothing to worry about, since Goku wasn’t using anywhere near his full power (Vegeta also notes in passing that he hasn’t shown his full power yet either). Trunks wonders why Goku and Vegeta are both so much more powerful than before, but they say it’s a long story. Still, Black’s ki was also constantly rising as he fought Goku, so who knows what his limits are?

The Pilaf Gang steps in to extinguish the time machine’s flames (hoping that they can get food in return). With the flames out, the time machine is now nothing but a burnt-out husk. Bulma laments that even with her future self’s notes, she can’t rebuild the machine from scratch all on her own. Suddenly though, she has an idea and rushes off inside to find something. For his part, Beerus seems pleased that with the time machine gone humans now can no longer mess around with time, but Whis thinks they’ve got another problem to worry about now: Black’s “Time Ring” is something which only Kaioshins are permitted to use. However, Black is quite certainly not a Kaioshin. In that case, what exactly is he? It’s still unclear. Regardless, Time Rings can only take you to the future, and then back to the present, since even among the gods it is strictly forbidden to travel into the past.

Trunks asks Beerus and Whis to give him one of these Time Rings, but since Beerus is a God of Destruction (rather than a Kaioshin), he doesn’t have them. Trunks is still worried about what will happen to future Earth if he doesn’t get back there, but Beerus stresses once again that people shouldn’t mess around with time; both Trunks and Black are troublesome in that regard. Whis thinks that Black most likely can’t travel through time at will, and so probably won’t be back. Which means that if they want to defeat Black, they’ll have to go to the future. Kuririn asks if Whis can use his own time-manipulating powers to take them there, but Whis explains that his powers only allow him to rewind time a maximum of three minutes, and don’t extend to traveling into the future.

Trunks is despondent, since everyone in the future was depending on him. However, Vegeta tells him not to give up; there’s definitely a way to solve this! Beerus says that humans are always so quick to say “don’t give up”, but frankly sometimes there’s nothing that can be done; giving up is important too! Bulma finally returns, having found what she was looking for: a capsule which she throws out to reveal…the battered old time machine Cell arrived in! They’ve got another time machine after all!
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jul 3 2016, 02:25 AM.
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The second Trunks time machine was destroyed I wondered if they were gonna remember the one Cell came in. I'm actually quite surprised they even remembered that.
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魔王子

Man, if the 2-base theory is legit, Goku-Black is a b***. Super Saiyan 2 Goku stalemated him.
EDIT: Oh, very interesting tidbit here:
Herms
 
Black: "What an honor. I wanted to battle you in this body."
Goku: "Huh?"
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jul 3 2016, 01:06 AM.
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Sorry for the double post, but I think we have ourselves another plot hole. The time machine Bulma found should be connected to the timeline Cell came from. How the Hell is Trunks going to use it to go back to his timeline? Also, didn't Trunks put Cell's time machine in his own capsule case? If so, that's two plot holes.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jul 3 2016, 01:15 AM
Sorry for the double post, but I think we have ourselves another plot hole. The time machine Bulma found should be connected to the timeline Cell came from. How the Hell is Trunks going to use it to go back to his timeline? Also, didn't Trunks put Cell's time machine in his own capsule case? If so, that's two plot holes.
Well they can be easily explained. There can just be some kind of control in the time machine that let's you jump between timelines, and Trunks could have given Bulma Cell's time machine at some point.
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I'm pretty sure the time machines are linked to their specific timelines.
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They don't have to be. If you wanna stop this being a plot hole you can just with that simple explanation.

Edit: In fact, I'm pretty sure Trunks have gone back to two different futures. One where Cell kills him, and one where he kills Cell.
Edited by Clearin, Jul 3 2016, 03:06 AM.
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But that's a rather contrived rationalization that honestly just creates more questions. Why would Bulma design the time machine with the capability to travel to multiple timelines? Furthermore, why would Trunks be taken back by the fact that the time machine operates under multiverse theory if the time machine had the capability to travel to multiple timelines.
Clearin
 
Edit: In fact, I'm pretty sure Trunks have gone back to two different futures. One where Cell kills him, and one where he kills Cell.

What?
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jul 3 2016, 03:14 AM.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jul 3 2016, 03:09 AM
But that's a rather contrived rationalization that honestly just creates more questions. Why would Bulma design the time machine with the capability to travel to multiple timelines? Furthermore, how Trunks be taken back by the fact that the time machine operates under multiverse theory if the time machine had the capability to travel to multiple timelines.
Bulma would design the time machine to do that because she knew that travelling back in time would create new timelines.

Trunks knew the time machine operated under multiverse theory. It is true that in a certain moment he did forget about this fact.

Trunks suggests going back in time (when he was already in the past) to destroy the androids before they're activated. Gohan questions if that would destroy the present time androids but then Trunks remembers that this whole thing runs on a multiverse theory. We know that he already knew this because Yamcha asked why Trunks came back to the past if it wouldn't change his future, and Trunks responded with:
A) Bulma said there deserves to be at least one peaceful future
B) They could find a weakness of the androids by watching Goku fight them (so Goku beating them in the present wouldn't destroy them in the future)
C) Maybe they could bring Goku to "our" future to defeat the androids. Note that he specifically says "our" future, not just "the" future.

Trunks already had justifications for going into the past knowing full well that it wouldn't change his future, and we also know Bulma knew this too because many of those reasons were given to him by Bulma.

Quote:
 
What?

Future Trunks goes to one future where he is killed by Cell (this is the Cell that takes his time machine and becomes the Cell we know) and one future where he kills Cell, which is the one we see in the manga.
Edited by Clearin, Jul 3 2016, 03:17 AM.
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I'm pretty sure Trunks wasn't aware of multiverse theory until Gohan put forth the idea when they were transporting Goku to Kame House.
Quote:
 
Future Trunks goes to one future where he is killed by Cell (this is the Cell that takes his time machine and becomes the Cell we know) and one future where he kills Cell, which is the one we see in the manga.

That seems like a plot hole on the manga's part, as the Trunks in Cell's timeline had already gone back in time to find a way to deactivate the Artificial Humans. The coordinates were already set on that time machine, so that time machine should have gone to the timeline that Trunks had already visited.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jul 3 2016, 03:24 AM.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jul 3 2016, 03:20 AM
I'm pretty sure Trunks wasn't aware of multiverse theory until Gohan put forth the idea when they were transporting Goku to Kame House.
Gohan didn't put forth the idea. He merely questioned what would happen if Trunks went back in time to destroy the androids, and whether it would destroy the androids in the current time too. It's then Trunks who remembers that it works on multiverse theory and explains it all to everyone.

Trunks would have to be incredibly stupid to not realise the multiverse theory when all of Bulma's reasoning for going back in time works on the fact it wouldn't save his own timeline.

The only line that hints of Trunks not knowing this is when he first goes back to the past and says Vegeta and Bulma not doing their thing might "cause him to not be born". But every other line from that period indicates he knows full well he's not going to change his future - he tells Goku that he can "go home and reassure his mother", something that would be pointless if his future was going to be changed by the time he had got back there. And he tells Goku that in 3 years if he's still alive he'll come back to help fight, but in his mind the futures fate would have been decided before he'd even gotten back home. The line about him not being born could by that point easily just be explained by the fact he meant present timeline Trunks not being born, not him specifically.

In any case, I think that the fact all of Trunks' reasoning for returning to the past involves multiverse theory explanations, that it's proof enough Trunks knew about it.

Quote:
 
That seems like a plot hole on the manga's part, as the Trunks in Cell's timeline had already gone back in time to find a way to deactivate the Artificial Humans. The coordinates were already set on that time machine, so that time machine should have gone to the timeline that Trunks had already visited.

Cell went back 1 year before Trunks first arrived, creating a new timeline.

Basically the 4 timelines go like this:

Timeline A: Goku kills Freeza. Androids kill everyone, Trunks goes back in time to timeline B. Trunks arrives back. Trunks goes back to B again. Trunks comes back once more. Trunks beats future androids (not stated how) and gets killed by future Cell. Cell goes back in time to timeline C

Timeline B: Trunks kills Freeza. Trunks warns everyone. Trunks goes back to timeline A. Trunks comes back 3 years later. They beat the androids. Trunks goes back to timeline A.

Timeline C: Main timeline. Trunks kills Freeza. Warns everyone. Goes back to A. Comes back 3 years later. Everything up to the end of the Cell Games happens. Trunks goes back to a NEW timeline now - Timeline D

Timeline D: Everything is the same as timeline A up until "Trunsk comes back once more". Trunks comes back, kills the androids then kills Cell.

The Trunks in timeline D and timeline A are completely different. The Trunks that returns in timeline D is much stronger and two years older. Since Timeline A can only possibly have one of these Trunks be the one who returns to it, a new timeline is created by this stronger, older Trunks going back. And as a result of a stronger Trunks returning, timeline D differs from timeline A by allowing Trunks to beat Cell. He also presumably kills the androids in a different way (thought to be the remote in timeline A).
Edited by Clearin, Jul 3 2016, 03:37 AM.
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Why would setting the time machine back a year force the time machine into a different timeline?
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Every change to the past creates a new timeline, and someone travelling back in time is a change to the past.

And logically it'd be impossible for it not to. There has to have been a timeline where Cell wasn't in the past because for Cell to have time travelled, history needed to have already happened once without Cell time travelling.

We know that Cell comes from a timeline where his Trunks had already travelled to the past. So that Trunks must have travelled to a past where Cell didn't exist - because his Cell hadn't travelled back in time before his Trunks did.
Edited by Clearin, Jul 3 2016, 03:47 AM.
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You guys are getting me all f***ed up with this time travel hubbaloo.

So Black isn't in his true body? Not another Ginyu reveal! Black is definitely not just an evil Goku...damn.
Edited by Pyrus, Jul 3 2016, 05:29 AM.
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"Oh Bebi"
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