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The Anime's Position on Pure Boo
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Topic Started: Jun 24 2016, 05:35 PM (6,264 Views)
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+ Emmeth
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Jul 1 2016, 11:35 PM
Post #121
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Goku was holding back power, I already proved this in 2 threads. Would you like me to post it again?
Thing is though, you never proved anything, you simply claimed it. We have disputed your points many times, but your persistent attitude blinds you. Though, I'm not gonna argue that anymore even if I don't agree with you. I can see things from both sides, though I still think there's too much disproving Goku holding back.
Kid Buu is undeniably stronger than Fat Buu, and we have statements claiming that SSJ3 Goku initially held back against Kid Buu. I think we can surmise that he held back even more power vs. Fat Buu.
But how much stronger? Pure Boo could just be toying around with Goku when he was holding back, like he did later. That Goku held back doesn't mean much since he never actually challenged Pure Boo. We know he held back against Fat Boo but we don't know for sure how much. We also knew he lied when he said he couldn't take out Fat Boo, but it doesn't mean he could take him out with ease. Honestly I don't think there's a huge difference between Fat Boo and Pure Boo. East Kaioshin never notes a huge difference in power when Pure Boo absorbed Chief Kaioshin and became Fat Boo. Did he? We have statements saying Super Boo wouldn't allow anyone to be stronger than him and he was referring to Gohan. Why would he not just say Goku? Are we still under the impression that Goku still is holding back at this point? I feel like the whole "holding back" argument is thin at best. Goku was definitely not holding back against Vegeta, that much I can say.
Goku was clearly holding back. He went from DOMINATING Fat Buu while holding back ( a guy Vegeta fought roughly even with) to fighting EVEN with Kid Buu (a guy who beat Vegeta in 2 hits) The power gap is MASSIVE. Goku holds back his power until he fights Kid Buu. Evil Buu couldn't comment on Goku's power because he's never sensed Goku (Fat Buu can't sense Ki)
I just don't buy into it, man. I can't imagine Akira Toriyama having a long-plan of Goku holding back since the very start of the arc, it just doesn't click for me. I can see it being one interpretation, but not the absolute truth.
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Jul 2 2016, 12:34 AM
Post #122
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- Darkness Flame
- Jul 1 2016, 10:31 PM
Haha, KidBuu55 has a date yet he's still logged on half an hour later. Hmm...
I left my browser open apparently. This is the first time I opened my phone since the last post and I'm in the bathroom :-P
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KidBuu55
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Jul 2 2016, 02:08 PM
Post #123
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- Emmeth
- Jul 1 2016, 11:35 PM
- KidBuu55
- Jul 1 2016, 09:46 PM
- Emmeth
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- sekzee
- Jul 1 2016, 05:45 PM
- Emmeth
- Jul 1 2016, 04:34 PM
- KidBuu55
- Jul 1 2016, 04:31 PM
Goku was holding back power, I already proved this in 2 threads. Would you like me to post it again?
Thing is though, you never proved anything, you simply claimed it. We have disputed your points many times, but your persistent attitude blinds you. Though, I'm not gonna argue that anymore even if I don't agree with you. I can see things from both sides, though I still think there's too much disproving Goku holding back.
Kid Buu is undeniably stronger than Fat Buu, and we have statements claiming that SSJ3 Goku initially held back against Kid Buu. I think we can surmise that he held back even more power vs. Fat Buu.
But how much stronger? Pure Boo could just be toying around with Goku when he was holding back, like he did later. That Goku held back doesn't mean much since he never actually challenged Pure Boo. We know he held back against Fat Boo but we don't know for sure how much. We also knew he lied when he said he couldn't take out Fat Boo, but it doesn't mean he could take him out with ease. Honestly I don't think there's a huge difference between Fat Boo and Pure Boo. East Kaioshin never notes a huge difference in power when Pure Boo absorbed Chief Kaioshin and became Fat Boo. Did he? We have statements saying Super Boo wouldn't allow anyone to be stronger than him and he was referring to Gohan. Why would he not just say Goku? Are we still under the impression that Goku still is holding back at this point? I feel like the whole "holding back" argument is thin at best. Goku was definitely not holding back against Vegeta, that much I can say.
Goku was clearly holding back. He went from DOMINATING Fat Buu while holding back ( a guy Vegeta fought roughly even with) to fighting EVEN with Kid Buu (a guy who beat Vegeta in 2 hits) The power gap is MASSIVE. Goku holds back his power until he fights Kid Buu. Evil Buu couldn't comment on Goku's power because he's never sensed Goku (Fat Buu can't sense Ki)
I just don't buy into it, man. I can't imagine Akira Toriyama having a long-plan of Goku holding back since the very start of the arc, it just doesn't click for me. I can see it being one interpretation, but not the absolute truth.
It is the truth. I just posted the clips from the anime (which came out BEFORE than Manga chapters) literally stating that Gotenks isn't even on Buu's level, much less Goku. We know Goku was holding back, even Piccolo clues the reader on to what's going on.
Who else could have been the lead? Gotenks? Obviously not.
Gohan? Defiantly not.
Vegeta? Hell no.
It was always meant to be Goku.
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+ Emmeth
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Jul 2 2016, 02:10 PM
Post #124
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- KidBuu55
- Jul 2 2016, 02:08 PM
- Emmeth
- Jul 1 2016, 11:35 PM
- KidBuu55
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- Emmeth
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- sekzee
- Jul 1 2016, 05:45 PM
- Emmeth
- Jul 1 2016, 04:34 PM
- KidBuu55
- Jul 1 2016, 04:31 PM
Goku was holding back power, I already proved this in 2 threads. Would you like me to post it again?
Thing is though, you never proved anything, you simply claimed it. We have disputed your points many times, but your persistent attitude blinds you. Though, I'm not gonna argue that anymore even if I don't agree with you. I can see things from both sides, though I still think there's too much disproving Goku holding back.
Kid Buu is undeniably stronger than Fat Buu, and we have statements claiming that SSJ3 Goku initially held back against Kid Buu. I think we can surmise that he held back even more power vs. Fat Buu.
But how much stronger? Pure Boo could just be toying around with Goku when he was holding back, like he did later. That Goku held back doesn't mean much since he never actually challenged Pure Boo. We know he held back against Fat Boo but we don't know for sure how much. We also knew he lied when he said he couldn't take out Fat Boo, but it doesn't mean he could take him out with ease. Honestly I don't think there's a huge difference between Fat Boo and Pure Boo. East Kaioshin never notes a huge difference in power when Pure Boo absorbed Chief Kaioshin and became Fat Boo. Did he? We have statements saying Super Boo wouldn't allow anyone to be stronger than him and he was referring to Gohan. Why would he not just say Goku? Are we still under the impression that Goku still is holding back at this point? I feel like the whole "holding back" argument is thin at best. Goku was definitely not holding back against Vegeta, that much I can say.
Goku was clearly holding back. He went from DOMINATING Fat Buu while holding back ( a guy Vegeta fought roughly even with) to fighting EVEN with Kid Buu (a guy who beat Vegeta in 2 hits) The power gap is MASSIVE. Goku holds back his power until he fights Kid Buu. Evil Buu couldn't comment on Goku's power because he's never sensed Goku (Fat Buu can't sense Ki)
I just don't buy into it, man. I can't imagine Akira Toriyama having a long-plan of Goku holding back since the very start of the arc, it just doesn't click for me. I can see it being one interpretation, but not the absolute truth.
It is the truth. I just posted the clips from the anime (which came out BEFORE than Manga chapters) literally stating that Gotenks isn't even on Buu's level, much less Goku. We know Goku was holding back, even Piccolo clues the reader on to what's going on. Who else could have been the lead? Gotenks? Obviously not. Gohan? Defiantly not. Vegeta? Hell no. It was always meant to be Goku.
So you refuse to even consider other possibilities? You can not comprehend another option? You're just gonna say "I am right, you are wrong, deal with it"?
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KidBuu55
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Jul 2 2016, 02:21 PM
Post #125
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- Emmeth
- Jul 2 2016, 02:10 PM
- KidBuu55
- Jul 2 2016, 02:08 PM
- Emmeth
- Jul 1 2016, 11:35 PM
- KidBuu55
- Jul 1 2016, 09:46 PM
- Emmeth
- Jul 1 2016, 06:53 PM
- sekzee
- Jul 1 2016, 05:45 PM
- Emmeth
- Jul 1 2016, 04:34 PM
- KidBuu55
- Jul 1 2016, 04:31 PM
Goku was holding back power, I already proved this in 2 threads. Would you like me to post it again?
Thing is though, you never proved anything, you simply claimed it. We have disputed your points many times, but your persistent attitude blinds you. Though, I'm not gonna argue that anymore even if I don't agree with you. I can see things from both sides, though I still think there's too much disproving Goku holding back.
Kid Buu is undeniably stronger than Fat Buu, and we have statements claiming that SSJ3 Goku initially held back against Kid Buu. I think we can surmise that he held back even more power vs. Fat Buu.
But how much stronger? Pure Boo could just be toying around with Goku when he was holding back, like he did later. That Goku held back doesn't mean much since he never actually challenged Pure Boo. We know he held back against Fat Boo but we don't know for sure how much. We also knew he lied when he said he couldn't take out Fat Boo, but it doesn't mean he could take him out with ease. Honestly I don't think there's a huge difference between Fat Boo and Pure Boo. East Kaioshin never notes a huge difference in power when Pure Boo absorbed Chief Kaioshin and became Fat Boo. Did he? We have statements saying Super Boo wouldn't allow anyone to be stronger than him and he was referring to Gohan. Why would he not just say Goku? Are we still under the impression that Goku still is holding back at this point? I feel like the whole "holding back" argument is thin at best. Goku was definitely not holding back against Vegeta, that much I can say.
Goku was clearly holding back. He went from DOMINATING Fat Buu while holding back ( a guy Vegeta fought roughly even with) to fighting EVEN with Kid Buu (a guy who beat Vegeta in 2 hits) The power gap is MASSIVE. Goku holds back his power until he fights Kid Buu. Evil Buu couldn't comment on Goku's power because he's never sensed Goku (Fat Buu can't sense Ki)
I just don't buy into it, man. I can't imagine Akira Toriyama having a long-plan of Goku holding back since the very start of the arc, it just doesn't click for me. I can see it being one interpretation, but not the absolute truth.
It is the truth. I just posted the clips from the anime (which came out BEFORE than Manga chapters) literally stating that Gotenks isn't even on Buu's level, much less Goku. We know Goku was holding back, even Piccolo clues the reader on to what's going on. Who else could have been the lead? Gotenks? Obviously not. Gohan? Defiantly not. Vegeta? Hell no. It was always meant to be Goku.
So you refuse to even consider other possibilities? You can not comprehend another option? You're just gonna say "I am right, you are wrong, deal with it"?
I'm going by PURELY what the author and his staff created and trying not to interject my own bias into this. Bias is why we have silly arguments about how base Gotenks is stronger than Goku and Vegeta, despite literally everything saying they aren't.
Bias is why we have people believing that Gohan was as strong, or stronger than Goku in Super (much less Z)
Bias is why many of these arguments exist, because people aren't willing to be objective and look at the complete body of work. Instead they are content cherry picking statements and ignoring the broader context, just because they think it will further what they believe the story SHOULD say, instead of what's actually written.
So no, I cannot see how I'm "wrong" in this scenario, but I'm willing to read a well thought out response on how I could be.
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+ Emmeth
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Jul 2 2016, 02:24 PM
Post #126
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I'm pretty sure Toriyama said that the readers and viewers of DB/DBZ can watch it in any way they want and that there is no real final product, that he basically left it open-ended so that the consumers can decide.
If someone can find that interview, that'd be nice.
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KidBuu55
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Jul 2 2016, 02:30 PM
Post #127
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- Emmeth
- Jul 2 2016, 02:24 PM
I'm pretty sure Toriyama said that the readers and viewers of DB/DBZ can watch it in any way they want and that there is no real final product, that he basically left it open-ended so that the consumers can decide.
If someone can find that interview, that'd be nice.
Yeah, I never heard that. I did read the interview where he calls Dragonball the manga and the anime, and that people should enjoy BOTH media.
What you're stating is that he left it vague so you can willingly ignore literally everything I've stated in this thread and the others.
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+ Emmeth
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Jul 2 2016, 02:34 PM
Post #128
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Either way, it's never crystal clear that Goku is the strongest in the Boo arc. In fact, this implies that Gohan and Gotenks are both stronger:
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”
Now, tell me this. Why would Goku even mention Gohan and Gotenks if he could handle Boo on his own? Why wouldn't his first thought be "Oh, you want to restore my power so I can fight Boo!".
Tell me that.
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Jul 2 2016, 02:52 PM
Post #129
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- Emmeth
- Jul 2 2016, 02:34 PM
Either way, it's never crystal clear that Goku is the strongest in the Boo arc. In fact, this implies that Gohan and Gotenks are both stronger:
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”
Now, tell me this. Why would Goku even mention Gohan and Gotenks if he could handle Boo on his own? Why wouldn't his first thought be "Oh, you want to restore my power so I can fight Boo!".
Tell me that.
Uhhh, first. No.
Goku was guessing at Vegeta's plan, not suggesting it.
Next, Goku suggest bringing Gohan AND Gotenks to FIGHT
Also, when Goku loses SSJ3 and they are watching Buu fight, Goku states to Vegeta that "it's only a matter of time" (in my viz) meaning - "we are all going to die soon."
There is also this quote:
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?”
Everyone dies if Goku had failed. Everyone.
Edited by KidBuu55, Jul 2 2016, 02:57 PM. |
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+ Emmeth
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Jul 2 2016, 02:58 PM
Post #130
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- Jul 2 2016, 02:52 PM
Uhhh, first. No.
Goku was guessing at Vegeta's plan, not suggesting it.
Next, Goku suggest bringing Gohan AND Gotenks to FIGHT
There is also this quote:
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?”
Everyone dies if Goku had failed. Everyone.
Duh, yes.
Goku was suggesting and guessing at the same time. You can't prove otherwise.
And that quote means nothing because it's only relevant to the current situation.
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Jul 2 2016, 03:04 PM
Post #131
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- Jul 2 2016, 02:58 PM
- KidBuu55
- Jul 2 2016, 02:52 PM
Uhhh, first. No.
Goku was guessing at Vegeta's plan, not suggesting it.
Next, Goku suggest bringing Gohan AND Gotenks to FIGHT
There is also this quote:
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?”
Everyone dies if Goku had failed. Everyone.
Duh, yes. Goku was suggesting and guessing at the same time. You can't prove otherwise. And that quote means nothing because it's only relevant to the current situation.
No.
Goku states he doesn't know Vegeta's plan.
He makes a statement GUESSING Vegeta's plan, and Vegeta says no.
Vegeta states his plan is a spirit bomb.
Beyond that, there are quite a few things stating they can't.
Goku stating it was "the end" when he lost SSJ3
Goku stating it was "too soon" to use the dragonballs when Vegeta wanted to use them
Goku suggesting BOTH Gohan AND GOTENKS fight Buu (not beat, like He said he could)
Finally, we have a quote of Goku saying that if he didn't have Buu and Satan's help EVERYONE (himself included) would have died. Gohan is included in EVERYONE.
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+ Emmeth
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Jul 2 2016, 03:07 PM
Post #132
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My point is that you can't prove it was just a guess. You are cherry picking aswell. It really doesn't matter what you say, because you haven't proven a single thing during your time here. All you've done is get almost every single member against you profusely disagreeing with you.
I commend you for you efforts and your stubborness, but you do not make the law and that's exactly how you're acting.
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Jul 2 2016, 03:14 PM
Post #133
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- Jul 2 2016, 03:07 PM
My point is that you can't prove it was just a guess. You are cherry picking aswell. It really doesn't matter what you say, because you haven't proven a single thing during your time here. All you've done is get almost every single member against you profusely disagreeing with you.
I commend you for you efforts and your stubborness, but you do not make the law and that's exactly how you're acting.
I'm not interested in what people think of me, I'm not here to win popularity contest - I'm here to be correct.
Less about my character and more about the anime/manga.
Goku states "I know, you'll get Gohan and Gotenks to fight with us"
This is NOT a suggestion, it's what Goku expects Vegeta's plan to be which is why Vegeta states "no." and counters with a Spirit Bomb. Goku is surprised and states "that's your plan?" meaning again, They are SPECIFICALLY SPEAKING OF VEGETA'S PLANS.
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+ Emmeth
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Jul 2 2016, 03:25 PM
Post #134
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- Jul 2 2016, 03:14 PM
Goku states "I know, you'll get Gohan and Gotenks to fight with us"
This is NOT a suggestion, it's what Goku expects Vegeta's plan to be which is why Vegeta states "no." and counters with a Spirit Bomb. Goku is surprised and states "that's your plan?" meaning again, They are SPECIFICALLY SPEAKING OF VEGETA'S PLANS.
You make it sound like Vegeta knows Goku better than Goku. Whether it was guessing or suggesting, Gohan and Gotenks were mentioned. I could very well counter that they would fight together just in case Boo uses another absorption attack. Assuming that Base Saiyans are below Freeza all the way to the end of the series, which I believe, the gap doesn't have to be humongous between Super Boo and Pure Boo. Therefore it's very possible Pure Boo is weaker than Super Boo, but not by a large margin.
Can you prove me wrong?
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Jul 2 2016, 03:36 PM
Post #135
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- Jul 2 2016, 03:14 PM
Goku states "I know, you'll get Gohan and Gotenks to fight with us"
This is NOT a suggestion, it's what Goku expects Vegeta's plan to be which is why Vegeta states "no." and counters with a Spirit Bomb. Goku is surprised and states "that's your plan?" meaning again, They are SPECIFICALLY SPEAKING OF VEGETA'S PLANS.
You make it sound like Vegeta knows Goku better than Goku. Whether it was guessing or suggesting, Gohan and Gotenks were mentioned. I could very well counter that they would fight together just in case Boo uses another absorption attack. Assuming that Base Saiyans are below Freeza all the way to the end of the series, which I believe, the gap doesn't have to be humongous between Super Boo and Pure Boo. Therefore it's very possible Pure Boo is weaker than Super Boo, but not by a large margin. Can you prove me wrong?
Uh yeah -
Gohan is stronger than Gotenks and has no time limit on his power, there is NOTHING Gotenks can do that Gohan can't. Even if Buu DID absorb Gotenks or Gohan, no one else (alive or dead) could do a damn thing about it.
But yeah, considering Kaioshin states that Buu is more powerful and evil than he was before, we know kid Buu is stronger. We know that no one can beat him BUT Goku and Vegetto, We KNOW that if Goku failed, everyone would die.
We know all these things because we are given direct, clear statements multiple times over. I'm not looking for the hidden meaning of the universe, I'm reading Dragonball, which is meant to be simple and straightforward.
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4:36 PM Jul 13