ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jul 2 2016, 06:37 PM

This thread is getting a little out of hand. Any mod has my permission to close it at this point. I was hesitant to start this sorta discussion, as I sorta knew it was going to devolve into a series of "Yeah huh and nuh uh" arguments, and low and behold, that's what it's become.

Clearin

Jul 2 2016, 06:30 PM

KidBuu55

Jul 2 2016, 06:22 PM

Emmeth

Jul 2 2016, 04:26 PM

It's still not enough to be considered proof. I don't care what you say.

That's the thing. I have proof, it literally says it. You have nothing.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=9329622&t=8575381

Clearin

Jul 2 2016, 04:48 PM

KidBuu55

Jul 2 2016, 04:18 PM

Action: Buu destroys the Earth in a "cruel blast" (quoting the diazenshuu) that cannot be stopped, proving he is MORE EVIL and MORE POWERFUL.
http://web.archive.org/web/20111007094607/http://kanzentai.com/trans.php

Your link just goes to a general translations page, and not the page that specifically contains the quote. You didn't even say which Daizenshuu it comes from, so how is anybody supposed to fact check it?

Quote:

 

Says Toriyama:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/Unrivalled/scan0004zh3.jpg~original

I've already told you, it wasn't Toriyama who said that here, it was the interviewer.

I was being lazy, and I was mistaken:

Dragon Ball Kai Episode 150Air Date: 26 April 2015
地球消滅！！始まりのブウの非道な一撃
Chikyū Shōmetsu!! Hajimari no Bū no Hidōna Ichigeki
Earth Disappears!!
The Original Boo’s Single Cruel Blast

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/kai/majin-buu

And YES, it most definitely DOES say Kid Buu is the strongest, as it's LITERALLY confirmed by Toriyama himself - He agrees and goes into detail as to WHY he drew his characters that way. If the premise of the question was misguided, the answer wouldn't make any sense.

You shouldn't really post the quote without looking it up. What is the Kai episode summary supposed to prove? It doesn't say anything about Kid Boo being the strongest.

Toriyama did not confirmed Kid Boo was stronger than Super Boo. He simply answered the question as to why he draws smaller characters as stronger. And as I said before, it doesn't have to mean the literal strongest, because final form Freeza isn't the strongest character. Then of course you'd argue "but it means the strongest version of a character", but that can't be right because kid Goku is mentioned, and kid Goku is not stronger than adult Goku. The question is moreso asking why Toriyama draws small characters that look weak but turn out really strong.

Clearin

Jul 2 2016, 06:55 PM

Emmeth

Jul 2 2016, 06:47 PM

Clearin

Jul 2 2016, 06:34 PM

Emmeth

Jul 2 2016, 06:33 PM

KidBuu55

Jul 2 2016, 06:22 PM

Emmeth

Jul 2 2016, 04:26 PM

It's still not enough to be considered proof. I don't care what you say.

That's the thing. I have proof, it literally says it. You have nothing.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=9329622&t=8575381

And this is exactly what I mean about your attitude. You think you have proof, but you don't. You either have a screwd definition of proof or you simply dgaf.

You could at least tell him why his proof isn't proof, and argue against his points rather than just dismissing them.

Of course given how often this topic comes up, I'm sure you've done that many, many times.

Let me ask you something then, Clearin. Do you think anything said in the Boo arc is conclusive? Do you think that Super Boo > Pure Boo or Pure Boo > Super Boo has enough evidence for someone to state it's proof?

I think there are certain statements that could be interpreted as Kid Boo being stronger, and WOULD be interpreted that way if not for the fact there's a far more overwhelming amount of evidence that points the other way, and evidence that is much harder to explain any other way.

Vegeta calling Goku #1, saying he's the only one who could fight Boo and saying everyone would have been doomed if not for Goku winning with the spirit bomb. That's all stuff that would be used as evidence if the debate was less one sided. But those small lines contradict a much larger amount of stuff, so we simply fit them into the story in a way that doesn't contradict earlier stuff: Goku is the #1 fighter, not necessarily the strongest (Goku is a better fighter than Gohan regardless of strength). Goku is the only one who can fight Boo cos Gohan and Gotenks are dead. "Everyone" would be dead if Mr Satan and Boo hadn't been there because...well...actually I don't know. Because Boo could just blow up Earth without having to fight Gohan? Because the wish to revive the Earthlings and Earth would have never happened if Fat Boo hadn't stalled Kid Boo and let Vegeta make the wish in the first place? There's lot of explanations.

But on the other side of the coin how do you explain away Goku saying Gotenks is stronger than himself, and then later that base Gotenks is stronger than SSj Gotenks from before? And then all the stuff later with Goku being too scared to fight Super Boo? All that stuff makes a pretty solid conclusion to the debate. But despite it being conclusive (at least to me), I still feel it's important to address any statements that could go otherwise. But like I said, that kinda thing has already been done, both in this topic, and hundreds of others like it in the past.

As for guidebooks and stuff, I don't use them as canon, so if a guidebook says Kid Boo is stronger, the people who follow them will have to deal with that.

Edit; That's for the manga though. The anime makes a much stronger case, and outright states, Kid Boo being stronger, despite it being contradicting.

Darkness Flame

Jul 2 2016, 06:57 PM

It should be noted though that those lines were pretty much concluding lines in the arc, and the story as a whole really. Isn't it true that the final word is the most important?

Quote:

 

Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”

Darkness Flame

Jul 2 2016, 06:57 PM

It should be noted though that those lines were pretty much concluding lines in the arc, and the story as a whole really. Isn't it true that the final word is the most important?

EMIYA

Jul 2 2016, 07:54 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jul 2 2016, 06:37 PM

This thread is getting a little out of hand. Any mod has my permission to close it at this point. I was hesitant to start this sorta discussion, as I sorta knew it was going to devolve into a series of "Yeah huh and nuh uh" arguments, and low and behold, that's what it's become.

Well I mean you got your answer basically.

The anime outright states that Kid Boo is the strongest, that he's on a completely different level from all the other Boos and it makes multiple accounts to try to make Goku far stronger than he such as outright fighting Kid Boo blow for blow and defeating Illusion Gohan who is stated to be as strong as the original. it goes out of its way to add or change up lines to make Boo and really in the end Goku to be stronger than normal. All things considered Toei Animation probably cares a lot less on where Boo is so much as they care about where Boo is an dmore so where their precious Goku is.

Of course you still have the problems. You still have Goku not only desiring to fight Kid Boo free of fusion but is still outright stated to be able to beat him via his full power attack. The point still stands that Goku's lack of ability to defeat Boo came from his inability to hold his power and not Boo's superiority of some sort. The anime still assigns the point that Goku is strong enough to match Kid Boo and has the power to defeat him if he ever got the chance.

But you're going to get into a problem as before. Goku is willing to fight the vastly stronger Kid Boo but freaks out at the idea of facing any form of Super Boo whatsoever. Whether it's base, Gotenks Boo or Gohan Boo, Goku makes several notions that he needs fusion to win. He's so desperate at times he's willing to fuse with Mr. Satan. Which as usual makes no sense.

He literally wants to screw up his life and fuse with someone forever, one who might make him weaker if he does it wrong to fight a guy weaker than Kid Boo whom he rivals already in power.

I mean what can you say, Goku's a sadomasochist...when he's not being a sadist.

KidBuu55

Jul 2 2016, 09:05 PM

Clearin

Jul 2 2016, 06:30 PM

KidBuu55

Jul 2 2016, 06:22 PM

Emmeth

Jul 2 2016, 04:26 PM

It's still not enough to be considered proof. I don't care what you say.

That's the thing. I have proof, it literally says it. You have nothing.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=9329622&t=8575381

Clearin

Jul 2 2016, 04:48 PM

KidBuu55

Jul 2 2016, 04:18 PM

Action: Buu destroys the Earth in a "cruel blast" (quoting the diazenshuu) that cannot be stopped, proving he is MORE EVIL and MORE POWERFUL.
http://web.archive.org/web/20111007094607/http://kanzentai.com/trans.php

Your link just goes to a general translations page, and not the page that specifically contains the quote. You didn't even say which Daizenshuu it comes from, so how is anybody supposed to fact check it?

Quote:

 

Says Toriyama:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/Unrivalled/scan0004zh3.jpg~original

I've already told you, it wasn't Toriyama who said that here, it was the interviewer.

I was being lazy, and I was mistaken:

Dragon Ball Kai Episode 150Air Date: 26 April 2015
地球消滅！！始まりのブウの非道な一撃
Chikyū Shōmetsu!! Hajimari no Bū no Hidōna Ichigeki
Earth Disappears!!
The Original Boo’s Single Cruel Blast

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/kai/majin-buu

And YES, it most definitely DOES say Kid Buu is the strongest, as it's LITERALLY confirmed by Toriyama himself - He agrees and goes into detail as to WHY he drew his characters that way. If the premise of the question was misguided, the answer wouldn't make any sense.

You shouldn't really post the quote without looking it up. What is the Kai episode summary supposed to prove? It doesn't say anything about Kid Boo being the strongest.

Toriyama did not confirmed Kid Boo was stronger than Super Boo. He simply answered the question as to why he draws smaller characters as stronger. And as I said before, it doesn't have to mean the literal strongest, because final form Freeza isn't the strongest character. Then of course you'd argue "but it means the strongest version of a character", but that can't be right because kid Goku is mentioned, and kid Goku is not stronger than adult Goku. The question is moreso asking why Toriyama draws small characters that look weak but turn out really strong.

If you read the message you already asked for the source from, it's just a statement on Buu's nature in general.

Quote:

 

Next, you are clearly grasping - The question in phrased in a way to show that smaller characters(Goku, Buu, Frieza) are smaller, cuter and young looking than previous forms or enemies that show up.

Kid Buu is a perfect example of this -
Frieza's final form is an example of this
Dragonball itself (the original) is based around Kid Goku like this

Toriyama understands perfectly what the interviewer is asking and answers accordingly. Neither I (nor anyone else) objectively reading that believes he is definitively stating Kid Goku is stronger than himself as an adult, and you know it. The interviewer make a distinction when he's describing the merit of his question, pointing out Frieza's/Buu's final forms (which is obviously separate from Kid and Adult Goku, as they aren't powered up states)

Clearin

Jul 2 2016, 11:21 PM

KidBuu55

Jul 2 2016, 09:05 PM

Clearin

Jul 2 2016, 06:30 PM

KidBuu55

Jul 2 2016, 06:22 PM

Emmeth

Jul 2 2016, 04:26 PM

It's still not enough to be considered proof. I don't care what you say.

That's the thing. I have proof, it literally says it. You have nothing.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=9329622&t=8575381

Clearin

Jul 2 2016, 04:48 PM

KidBuu55

Jul 2 2016, 04:18 PM

Action: Buu destroys the Earth in a "cruel blast" (quoting the diazenshuu) that cannot be stopped, proving he is MORE EVIL and MORE POWERFUL.
http://web.archive.org/web/20111007094607/http://kanzentai.com/trans.php

Your link just goes to a general translations page, and not the page that specifically contains the quote. You didn't even say which Daizenshuu it comes from, so how is anybody supposed to fact check it?

Quote:

 

Says Toriyama:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/Unrivalled/scan0004zh3.jpg~original

I've already told you, it wasn't Toriyama who said that here, it was the interviewer.

I was being lazy, and I was mistaken:

Dragon Ball Kai Episode 150Air Date: 26 April 2015
地球消滅！！始まりのブウの非道な一撃
Chikyū Shōmetsu!! Hajimari no Bū no Hidōna Ichigeki
Earth Disappears!!
The Original Boo’s Single Cruel Blast

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/kai/majin-buu

And YES, it most definitely DOES say Kid Buu is the strongest, as it's LITERALLY confirmed by Toriyama himself - He agrees and goes into detail as to WHY he drew his characters that way. If the premise of the question was misguided, the answer wouldn't make any sense.

You shouldn't really post the quote without looking it up. What is the Kai episode summary supposed to prove? It doesn't say anything about Kid Boo being the strongest.

Toriyama did not confirmed Kid Boo was stronger than Super Boo. He simply answered the question as to why he draws smaller characters as stronger. And as I said before, it doesn't have to mean the literal strongest, because final form Freeza isn't the strongest character. Then of course you'd argue "but it means the strongest version of a character", but that can't be right because kid Goku is mentioned, and kid Goku is not stronger than adult Goku. The question is moreso asking why Toriyama draws small characters that look weak but turn out really strong.

If you read the message you already asked for the source from, it's just a statement on Buu's nature in general.

...I have no idea what you're saying. You first claimed that the Daizenshuu called Kid Boo the strongest, but then you said the quote was a mistake and linked to a Kanzenshuu page for a Kai episode, which contained no information about Kid Boo being the strongest. I think your point got lost somewhere in all that.

Quote:

 

Next, you are clearly grasping - The question in phrased in a way to show that smaller characters(Goku, Buu, Frieza) are smaller, cuter and young looking than previous forms or enemies that show up.

Kid Buu is a perfect example of this -
Frieza's final form is an example of this
Dragonball itself (the original) is based around Kid Goku like this

Toriyama understands perfectly what the interviewer is asking and answers accordingly. Neither I (nor anyone else) objectively reading that believes he is definitively stating Kid Goku is stronger than himself as an adult, and you know it. The interviewer make a distinction when he's describing the merit of his question, pointing out Frieza's/Buu's final forms (which is obviously separate from Kid and Adult Goku, as they aren't powered up states)

You're the one grasping onto this interview question (and for some reason constantly attributing the quote to Toriyama rather than the interviewer itself).

And that still doesn't make sense with Kid Goku. How is kid Goku "smaller, cuter and young looking than previous forms or enemies that show up" when Kid Goku is the first character introduced? There WAS no previous form or enemy introduced before kid Goku.

And if you wanna omit adult Goku in the comparison because he's not a form, then we could bring Oozaru Goku into this, which very much is a form of Kid Goku. And look at that, the much stronger looking giant monkey form of kid Goku is in fact stronger than his smaller, cuter base form.

And I just want to emphasise once again: THIS WAS NOT TORIYAMA WHO SAID THAT

Clearin

Jul 1 2016, 11:56 AM

How would Vegetto one shotting Kid Boo be contradicting anything, even in the anime?

Quote:

 

Goku: Majin Boo, you are one dense guy, but your power, speed, and powers to recovery are all incredible. You're on a whole different level from all the Boos up to now

Quote:

 

Vegito: Not even I could have escaped the damage of a KKH/Masenko double attack.