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Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue
Topic Started: Jun 23 2016, 04:32 PM (10,948 Views)
ekrolo2
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Hm, with proper multiplier it would be easier to guess but still, if Blue is considerably stronger than Super Saiyan, even its power being cut to a mere 10th of itself should give him a bigger boost than his Super Saiyan.
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Judau Ashtha
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@.....if Blue is considerably stronger than Super Saiyan, even its power being cut to a mere 10th of itself should give him a bigger boost than his Super Saiyan.

Whats not to get? Vegeta was was left with a 10th of his full power and Goku as a SSJ was just using a 11th of his full power? So, Goku isn't that considerably stronger than Vegeta here.
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ekrolo2
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Judau Ashtha
Jun 24 2016, 09:51 PM
@.....if Blue is considerably stronger than Super Saiyan, even its power being cut to a mere 10th of itself should give him a bigger boost than his Super Saiyan.

Whats not to get? Vegeta was was left with a 10th of his full power and Goku as a SSJ was just using a 11th of his full power? So, Goku isn't that considerably stronger than Vegeta here.
Vegeta was left with a 10th of his power as a Super Saiyan Blue, not a tenth of his general power.

The only way that'd be inferior to Super Saiyan is if you nerfed Blue's increase and boosted SS.
Edited by ekrolo2, Jun 24 2016, 09:58 PM.
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Judau Ashtha
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@Vegeta was left with a 10th of his power as a Super Saiyan Blue, not a tenth of his general power.

What do you mean by that? Does it not mean that Vegeta only had access to 1/10 of his max base power? Or are you saying that his SSB multiplier got reduced to 1/10th?
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ekrolo2
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Judau Ashtha
Jun 24 2016, 10:03 PM
@Vegeta was left with a 10th of his power as a Super Saiyan Blue, not a tenth of his general power.

What do you mean by that? Does it not mean that Vegeta only had access to 1/10 of his max base power? Or are you saying that his SSB multiplier got reduced to 1/10th?
It means the power given to him by Super Saiyan Blue got diminished to a tenth of what it usually is.

Kind of like how Goku's Super Saiyan wasn't 50 times base after he was exhausted fighting Cell. It dropped to the point where Vegeta, Trunks and arguably Piccolo were doing better than him against the Cell Jrs. Fighters who're usually quite a bit weaker than him to varying degrees.
Edited by ekrolo2, Jun 24 2016, 10:16 PM.
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Judau Ashtha
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@Kind of like how Goku's Super Saiyan wasn't 50 times base after he was exhausted fighting Cell...

What makes you sure that his SSJ multiplier wasn't still 50 times base after fighting with cell? It could be that his base power was the one that dropped?

Example:

Base Goku: 10
Base Vegeta: 7
SSJ Goku : 10 x 50: 500
SSJ Vegeta : 7 x 50 : 350

After fighting Cell and during the fight with cell rather than his SSJ multiplier dropping, his base power could have dropped as follows,


Goku during his fight with Cell,

SSJ Goku : (10 - Z) x 50, where Z is the rate at which his base power level is dropping during his fight with Cell.

Goku after fighting Cell,

His Base power finally could have dropped at and stopped at 4 or something like that.
Therefore this Goku in SSJ would be : 4 x 50 = 200 and he is also weaker than Vegeta(since 350) now.
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ekrolo2
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Judau Ashtha
Jun 24 2016, 10:29 PM
@Kind of like how Goku's Super Saiyan wasn't 50 times base after he was exhausted fighting Cell...

What makes you sure that his SSJ multiplier wasn't still 50 times base after fighting with cell? It could be that his base power was the one that dropped?

Example:

Base Goku: 10
Base Vegeta: 7
SSJ Goku : 10 x 50: 500
SSJ Vegeta : 7 x 50 : 350

After fighting Cell and during the fight with cell rather than his SSJ multiplier dropping, his base power could have dropped as follows,


Goku during his fight with Cell,

SSJ Goku : (10 - Z) x 50, where Z is the rate at which his base power level is dropping during his fight with Cell.

Goku after fighting Cell,

His Base power finally could have dropped at and stopped at 4 or something like that.
Therefore this Goku in SSJ would be : 4 x 50 = 200 and he is also weaker than Vegeta(since 350) now.
Why would his base drop? He wasn't using his base form to fight Cell, he was using his Super Saiyan form which gives him a massive reservoir of energy to draw from. Energy he used up to the point fodder like Trunks, Vegeta and Piccolo managed to stand their ground against the Cell Jrs while he was eating dirt with the humans.

The whole thing with how base form takes a hit if you're using a transformation primarily is somewhat of a weird topic I'll admit but I think we can look to Namek for a good example of how it works. On Namek, Goku uses a Kaio-ken X20 to boost his power to try and kill Freeza, afterward, its still its default 3 million hence his 150 million power as a Super Saiyan. This shows us that its the power up/transformation that takes the stamina hit, not your base form, unless your base form is what you're using.
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Judau Ashtha
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@ afterward, its still its default 3 million hence his 150 million power as a Super Saiyan

Your assuming that. We don't really know what his power level was after the kaioken. It could have stayed the same or it could have dropped to like 2 or 2.5 million also.

@Why would his base drop? He wasn't using his base form to fight Cell, he was using his Super Saiyan form which gives him a massive reservoir of energy to draw from.

So what your saying is that for example if

base goku: 10
SSJ reservoir: 0

SSJ Goku : 500
And the reservoir provide by SSJ is : 490

And once this reservoir of 490 reaches 0 then he can't transform anymore right? But, that doesn't make any sense because then how did he transform in the first place. Because once his reservoir reaches 0 from 490, then why can't he just transform again? I don't see any difference in the parameters of the case when he first transforms and in the later case when only his "SSJ reservoir" reaches 0. I mean it's not like his base power his dropping as you suggested. Then whats stopping them from transforming again once their SSJ reservoir empties? I mean they still have their full base power/energy right?

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ekrolo2
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Judau Ashtha
Jun 24 2016, 11:09 PM
@ afterward, its still its default 3 million hence his 150 million power as a Super Saiyan

Your assuming that. We don't really know what his power level was after the kaioken. It could have stayed the same or it could have dropped to like 2 or 2.5 million also.

@Why would his base drop? He wasn't using his base form to fight Cell, he was using his Super Saiyan form which gives him a massive reservoir of energy to draw from.

So what your saying is that for example if

base goku: 10
SSJ reservoir: 0

SSJ Goku : 500
And the reservoir provide by SSJ is : 490

And once this reservoir of 490 reaches 0 then he can't transform anymore right? But, that doesn't make any sense because then how did he transform in the first place. Because once his reservoir reaches 0 from 490, then why can't he just transform again? I don't see any difference in the parameters of the case when he first transforms and in the later case when only his "SSJ reservoir" reaches 0. I mean it's not like his base power his dropping as you suggested. Then whats stopping them from transforming again once their SSJ reservoir empties? I mean they still have their full base power/energy right?

Guidebooks keep it at 3 million, the only reference we have for his power dropping is that he lost a lot of it which is understandable since a drop from 60 million to a mere 3 is a pretty significant one.

I don't get what you mean about Goku's reservoir being empty, I never said it was in reference to the Cell fight, merely that he spent a considerable amount of it.

A Saiyan's base form is merely a jumping off point for the transformations, once you reach a certain level of base, you get access to more energy trough a transformation. If you primarily fight in your transformed stated, its the energy given to you through that which'll take the hit. Which, depending on your level of mastery over Super Saiyan 1, will cause you to drop out of it if enough juice gets spent.

Conversely, if a fighter gets beaten the crap out of in his base, then chooses to transform, he'll have less access to the additional power afforded to him through transformations. Why? Because his foundations not good enough to support it.

The one way I think you can possibly "cheat" is to master Super Saiyan 1. Goku and Gohan spent several days doing normal things at greatly reduced power levels (they'd have to or else they would've smashed the s*** out of everything they touched). This is the only transformation where I think they could spend the vast majority or even all of their Super Saiyan reservoir and still stay in it, since its become so comfortable for them. 2 and 3 though? I don't think you can pull that off with either of those.

Although, bear in mind that Goku and Gohan were merely suppressing their power as Mastered Super Saiyan's, not actively using it to any capacity. So, I think its far more likely the amount of energy they can spend in Super Saiyan and stay in it has merely become a lot more flexible for them. Meaning they could spend as much as 95% of their MSSJ power and still say in that form.
Edited by ekrolo2, Jun 24 2016, 11:24 PM.
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Judau Ashtha
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@I don't get what you mean about Goku's reservoir being empty, I never said it was in reference to the Cell fight, merely that he spent a considerable amount of it.

Nothing. Basically, it just that you think that once a user's SSJ reservoir becomes empty he reverts back to base. I also agree with that but for me it's more of like "SSJ reservoir becoming empty + certain amount of base ki" getting depleted that makes the user revert to base form because he doesn't have enough energy/ki to maintain the transformation.

@A Saiyan's base form is merely a jumping off point for the transformations, once you reach a certain level of base, you get access to more energy trough a transformation. If you primarily fight in your transformed stated, its the energy given to you through that which'll take the hit. Which, depending on your level of mastery over Super Saiyan 1, will cause you to drop out of it if enough juice gets spent.

I don't agree or disagree with you on this one.

@Conversely, if a fighter gets beaten the crap out of in his base, then chooses to transform, he'll have less access to the additional power afforded to him through transformations. Why? Because his foundations not good enough to support it.

Yup. Thats pretty much evident anyways.

@The one way I think you can possibly "cheat" is to master Super Saiyan 1. Goku and Gohan spent several days doing normal things at greatly reduced power levels (they'd have to or else they would've smashed the s*** out of everything they touched). This is the only transformation where I think they could spend the vast majority or even all of their Super Saiyan reservoir and still stay in it, since its become so comfortable for them. 2 and 3 though? I don't think you can pull that off with either of those.

Agreed.

@lthough, bear in mind that Goku and Gohan were merely suppressing their power as Mastered Super Saiyan's, not actively using it to any capacity. So, I think its far more likely the amount of energy they can spend in Super Saiyan and stay in it has merely become a lot more flexible for them. Meaning they could spend as much as 95% of their MSSJ power and still say in that form.

Agreed.
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highwaysaiyan
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i have no idea where you get all of your information. maybe im not updated so...
source ?
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ekrolo2
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highwaysaiyan
Jun 25 2016, 05:36 PM
i have no idea where you get all of your information. maybe im not updated so...
source ?
Speculation from the manga with a healthy dose of much needed personnel bulls*** sprinkled throughout :P

That's basically how any power or form guessing goes after Namek.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

Okay, so, according to a translation for this chapter, Vegeta is actually at less than 10%, so I think it's fair to say that the manga suggests that Super Saiyan Blue is pretty much 10 times stronger than Super Saiyan. With that in mind, I'd assume the scale is actually something like this
Super Saiyan: 50 times base
Super Saiyan God: 250 times base(Half Super Saiyan Blue)
Super Saiyan Blue: 500 times base

Here are all the relevant statements pertaining to the power scaling:
Quote:
 
Context: Super Saiyan Goku and Hit are fighting.
Beerus: "God dammit, Goku has him totally beat in power! Screw that time-leap! He's only got the upper hand because he's resorting to cheap tricks!!

Quote:
 
Context: Super Saiyan God Goku has the advantage over Hit.
Beerus: "Spill the beans, Whis. Explain"
Whis: "As you wish. Goku has not only closed the gap between the two, but has now surpassed the previous power differential between he and Hit. A unique ability such as this only works at maximum efficiency on those equal to or lesser than the user's power level."
Beerus: "So why wasn't Vegeta able to overcome it in his blue form?"
Whis: "When he went Blue during his fight, he wasn't able to exert even one tenth of his usual strength. Blue is not a transformation that can be done over and over again in succession. That amount of stamina it consumes makes it a detriment in that regard."
Beerus: "So the short of it is, Goku's god form is stronger than Vegeta's blue was back then, and it now surpasses Hit's current power level... I leave anything out?"
Whis: "That about sums it up."

Quote:
 
Context: Hit powers up, and starts using his full power.
Hit: This... This is my full power. It's been so long since I was forced to use it... That my body probably won't hold out a single minute."

Quote:
 
Context: Hit has activated his time skip at full power.
Hit: H-He's turned... Blue!!"
Goku: "You're time leap... Has been broken!!"
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lazerbem
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And this is why Super's manga is a lot better than the anime
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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I'm inclined to agree.
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