Why I think Frieza>Base Goku

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Why I think Frieza>Base Goku
Tweet Topic Started: Jun 21 2016, 10:40 PM (3,226 Views)
ekrolo2	Jun 22 2016, 01:49 PM Post #46
Posts: 1,601 Group: Member Member #12,689 Joined: October 6, 2015 Gender Male Country None Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Opera Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	I think the estimate is perfectly fine for them to be inferior to Freeza. Beerus wouldn't be the first or last guy to gauge his opponents power in-spite of them suppressing it in his presence. Plus once you start getting into bigger and bigger multipliers for the various Super Saiyan states, it doesn't really seem necessary for the ridiculous strength gains of the Saiyan & Freeza sagas to continue.



+ Sandy Shore	Jun 22 2016, 02:57 PM Post #47
Posts: 1,860 Group: Elite Member Member #12,337 Joined: May 18, 2015	Saberoth No. 18 says it was hard for her to hold back for a matter of two seconds, but then she has no problem holding back for an entire fight against someone who was giving her trouble. She's already recognised Mighty Mask as being a different kettle of fish to the other competitors, so right off the bat she doesn't have to hold back as much, so the strain should be alleviated somewhat. On that machine, she's holding back virtually her entire power. Also, she must have been holding back against all of her other opponents; she absolutely held back when kicking that other human guy in the battle royale; and she had to have been holding back her power so as to not behead Satan. Holding back is far from an impossibility for her - it's a fact that she can. Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P12.2 Context: talking about the two disguised as Mighty Mask No.18: “…That weird long-torso freak isn’t anyone ordinary…His small arms had surprisingly powerful punches.” From this we understand that she recognises him as being more than an ordinary human, so it makes sense for her to treat him as such, but it doesn't make sense for her to come at him with everything she's got. She still thinks he's a human, and if she went all out against the likes of Krillin, she'd break him open.



+ Clearin	Jun 22 2016, 03:20 PM Post #48
Posts: 12,580 Group: Elite Member Member #6,372 Joined: June 18, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country United Kingdom	The idea that #18 couldn't hold back at all is a pretty weak argument anyway considering she held back to knock Jewel out of the ring without straight up murdering him.



* Yu Narukami	Jun 22 2016, 03:29 PM Post #49
Izanagi! Posts: 12,330 Group: Retired Staff Member #6,446 Joined: July 3, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country None	Clearin Jun 22 2016, 03:20 PM The idea that #18 couldn't hold back at all is a pretty weak argument anyway considering she held back to knock Jewel out of the ring without straight up murdering him. It's equally weak to assume that she had the ability to precisely suppress to Mighty Mask's level without having the ability to raise it just a little higher to knock him out without the fear of using too much power.



+ Clearin	Jun 22 2016, 03:56 PM Post #50
Posts: 12,580 Group: Elite Member Member #6,372 Joined: June 18, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country United Kingdom	Nagito Komaeda Jun 22 2016, 03:29 PM Clearin Jun 22 2016, 03:20 PM The idea that #18 couldn't hold back at all is a pretty weak argument anyway considering she held back to knock Jewel out of the ring without straight up murdering him. It's equally weak to assume that she had the ability to precisely suppress to Mighty Mask's level without having the ability to raise it just a little higher to knock him out without the fear of using too much power. That is true. I've been pretty vocal about why I think this fight makes no sense no matter how you look at it. If she's holding back then it presents some problems. She could easily end the fight by just using more effort, and it's extremely convenient that she held back EXACTLY enough to give Mighty Mask a hard time from the get-go without being able to sense power levels. On the other and, going all out from the start would have MURDERED a regular human. She might know Mighty Mask is above average in strength, but she's only seen him one shot a normal human martial artist, hardly enough justification to go all out from the start. I'd imagine she held back and raised her power as she was fighting, judging how much power her opponent had by hand to hand combat, which would be a bit harder and take longer than just Ki sensing. Then by the time she knocks MM to the ground, that's when she figures out the right amount to get a good upperhand without seriously injuring the boys. It still leaves the problem of how the boys had any trouble at the start of the match in the first place, when realistically any power she was using that would make them do that would be far too much for what she assumes to be a slightly above average human. Edited by Clearin, Jun 23 2016, 02:24 AM.



+ Sandy Shore	Jun 22 2016, 04:01 PM Post #51
Posts: 1,860 Group: Elite Member Member #12,337 Joined: May 18, 2015	Nagito Komaeda Jun 22 2016, 03:29 PM It's equally weak to assume that she had the ability to precisely suppress to Mighty Mask's level without having the ability to raise it just a little higher to knock him out without the fear of using too much power. No one's suggesting she's using a precise amount to just match him, but she can attempt to be in the area of. Maybe that area is something like Krillin, who himself is no ordinary human. Suggesting she can just up her power a little and knock him out requires her to, not only have more precision with her power than my position need suggest, but also have a handle of Mighty Mask's power - which she most definitely doesn't. It seems to me that she is attempting to use enough force to knock him out, but it's not working. When the fight starts, she's only on the defensive in the first panel; from there, she starts overpowering, effortlessly knocks him down, and fires a casual blast. When he gets back up, she thinks, with no fear or frustration in her face: No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…” Which implies that he's stronger still than she expected. Weirder, too. That's all, though. She already recognised him as being "no ordinary human", and after a little scuffle she recognises him as "so unusually strong". All this says to me that she's trying to get a grasp of his power, and, during the rest of her participation in the tournament, she's been making a conscious effort not to go overboard. I don't see why she would throw that completely out of the window here. As far as I'm concerned, it would be more strange for her to go all out at the beginning, even if Mighty Mask were thrice as strong as her in actuality. She simply wouldn't know that. Edited by Sandy Shore, Jun 22 2016, 04:06 PM.



Saberoph	Jun 23 2016, 01:57 AM Post #52
Posts: 11,517 Group: Member Member #5,650 Joined: January 23, 2011 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer Favourite Manga Dragon Ball Z	@Emmith: I'm not saying dismiss everything he says, but more of hold it slightly below the Manga, but hold it up higher than the Guidebooks. Say you had a 3 tier system of Fact, Semi-Fact and Contradictions, I would make his Interviews a 2.5, so in the middle of the other two. Mainly due to the fact that he does contradict himself a lot and has even said he doesn't care about being consistent and continuity...so in other words be careful. At the No. 18 fight. How about she does have her power lower at first, but then matches Trunks' power after making contact with him, because I do believe when hitting someone you can get a good gauge on their power without actually sensing it. I do believe all Trunks has to do is be at least 75-85% of her power for Vegeta to be stronger. But that's just me.
	Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.


+ Emmeth	Jun 23 2016, 02:15 AM Post #53
I ♥ Yoeri Posts: 20,075 Group: Legend Member #8,985 Joined: February 7, 2013 Country Japan	I'm still wondering where Piccolo fits in in all of this, considering Babidi and Dabra pointed out the Saiyans specifically and Vegeta knew Piccolo would compete.
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Saberoph	Jun 23 2016, 02:34 AM Post #54
Posts: 11,517 Group: Member Member #5,650 Joined: January 23, 2011 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer Favourite Manga Dragon Ball Z	To be honest, I had completely forgotten about him. Hmmm....
	Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.


+ Emmeth	Jun 23 2016, 02:36 AM Post #55
I ♥ Yoeri Posts: 20,075 Group: Legend Member #8,985 Joined: February 7, 2013 Country Japan	Given the relatively small gains the Saiyans made after the Cell Games, it makes no sense that they surpassed Piccolo who should be around 40-45% of MSSJ Goku.
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Saberoph	Jun 23 2016, 02:39 AM Post #56
Posts: 11,517 Group: Member Member #5,650 Joined: January 23, 2011 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer Favourite Manga Dragon Ball Z	I'll be honest with you... In nearly all of my Base Saiyajins debates, I usually leave Piccolo out of it, mainly because I really don't know where to place him. I don't even know if he continued training after Cell. I mean it would make sense for him to, but knowing Vegeta and Gohan are stronger than him, perhaps he finally realized he's second fiddle to the Saiyajins. I really don't know.
	Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.


+ Emmeth	Jun 23 2016, 02:43 AM Post #57
I ♥ Yoeri Posts: 20,075 Group: Legend Member #8,985 Joined: February 7, 2013 Country Japan	I think Toriyama confirmed in an interview a few years ago that Piccolo did continue to train after CG. I don't have the source, so if someone can find it that'd be wonderful.
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+ Clearin	Jun 23 2016, 02:43 AM Post #58
Posts: 12,580 Group: Elite Member Member #6,372 Joined: June 18, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country United Kingdom	I actually have Goku and Vegeta making pretty huge gains after the Cell Games. Whether or not that translates into being stronger than Piccolo I'm not sure, though Vegeta's dialogue would imply it. Not base Gohan though.



Saberoph	Jun 23 2016, 02:45 AM Post #59
Posts: 11,517 Group: Member Member #5,650 Joined: January 23, 2011 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer Favourite Manga Dragon Ball Z	Well, I even have Budokai Base Gohan only equal to No. 18 and below Piccolo. He shouldn't be stronger for not training.
	Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.


Thiln	Jun 23 2016, 02:48 AM Post #60
Posts: 2,481 Group: Member Member #12,166 Joined: March 23, 2015 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball, Attack on Titan What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Hokuto no Ken, Berserk, Dragon Ball, Rurouni Kenshin, Attack on Titan, Kuroshitsuji	I never thought it made sense to imply Piccolo was somehow weaker than the Base Saiyans. Unless you believe he experienced only the minimal of increases, leaving him below #16/Imperfect Cell then he's likely closer to the Super Saiyans still.



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