Saberoph

Jun 22 2016, 02:08 AM

You're saying Kaioshin is saying Yakon>ASSJ Gohan, but that's making an assumption, where my argument is going by the form we actually see and Kaioshin never said anything about Transforming. I'm only taking his line as literal...that doesn't make my argument weak.

Saberoph

 

We all know there is more than one way to interpret something, and all I did was interpret a line as something we literally see, which is one of the ways Toriyama's work can be interpreted.

Saberoph

Jun 22 2016, 02:08 AM

@Emmith: It involves taking No. 18 out of character, it also involves completely downplaying every single increase after Frieze to the point it's a joke and makes the increases a joke...which they're implied to be the opposite.

Saberoph

Jun 22 2016, 02:28 AM

@Emmith: That would be assuming there's some magical number on top of the SSJ Multiplier, but it's never been stated or implied. Also, it's within No. 18's character to smart off and talk down to them when she needs to put them in their place and when she gets mad. The fact that she remains quiet actually helps out Vegeta(I know, but I had to throw that out there).

Mike

Jun 22 2016, 02:22 AM

He had already seen Gohan do it at will at the tournament. It may have taken him a few seconds (though more dramatic transformations are usually dragged out anyway), but Yakon was distracted with Goku anyway.

Saberoph

Jun 22 2016, 02:43 AM

This is why I don't use interviews, because Toriyama constantly contradicts himself...he's like a Japanese Stan Lee, so the interviews are very shaky, and you know I've always felt this way.

I believe Vegeta because No. 18 says it was hard for her to hold back for a matter of two seconds, but then she has no problem holding back for an entire fight against someone who was giving her trouble. We already know Vegeta>Trunks and Trunks was giving No. 18 a very hard fight, while trying to stay balanced on Goten's shoulders, dealing with Goten not being still, having a hard time moving and fighting in a costume and having to hold back enough to keep from tearing through it. Pre Majin Vegeta is quite a bit stronger than Budokai Gohan, who is slightly above Trunks.

It's not hard coming to the conclusion of Vegeta>No. 18. Especially if you go with the fact that it was never contradicted.

Saberoph

Jun 22 2016, 02:51 AM

I'm not making my opinion the law, I'm just pointing out how inconsistent and contradicting Toriyama is in his interviews and also his newest work.

All Trunks has to be is slightly under her full power to justify Base Vegeta>No. 18.

Pyrus

Jun 22 2016, 02:38 AM

Mike

Jun 22 2016, 02:22 AM

He had already seen Gohan do it at will at the tournament. It may have taken him a few seconds (though more dramatic transformations are usually dragged out anyway), but Yakon was distracted with Goku anyway.

I don't see the significance of his line if he figured that was a guarantee every time.

Mike

Jun 22 2016, 03:26 AM

Pyrus

Jun 22 2016, 02:38 AM

Mike

Jun 22 2016, 02:22 AM

He had already seen Gohan do it at will at the tournament. It may have taken him a few seconds (though more dramatic transformations are usually dragged out anyway), but Yakon was distracted with Goku anyway.

I don't see the significance of his line if he figured that was a guarantee every time.

It doesn't have to mean transforming in general, just in the situation Goku was in where he was busy fighting Yakon.

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.4-5
Context: after Goku kills Yakon
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…"

Key word(s): "In a pinch"

He also saw Goku casually become a Super Saiyan 1 against Yakon and didn't act surprised. He just was frustrated with Goku for being stubborn.

Emmeth

Jun 22 2016, 01:09 AM

I'll put my money on Kaioshin overestimating Babidi's magic rather than him underestimating the Saiyans tbh.

Saberoph

Jun 22 2016, 01:40 AM

@Mike: Kaioshin's comment of them combined "might" be enough to win...again doesn't come off as confident. It's something that's outright said, and is never contradicted.

Saberoph

Jun 22 2016, 02:43 AM

No. 18 says it was hard for her to hold back for a matter of two seconds, but then she has no problem holding back for an entire fight against someone who was giving her trouble.