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Why I think Frieza>Base Goku
Topic Started: Jun 21 2016, 10:40 PM (3,228 Views)
Saberoph Jun 22 2016, 01:24 AM Post #16
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 But they were all also in Base, and he never says Transform.

A logical answer would be that he wants them to conserve their Ki if they have to fight Dabra.

@Emmith: It was very clear that Goku only went SSJ to show he had a source of light if he needed one. Heck, Goku even Transforms after bringing it up.
Edited by Saberoph, Jun 22 2016, 01:25 AM.
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+ Emmeth Jun 22 2016, 01:28 AM Post #17
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Saberoph
Jun 22 2016, 01:24 AM
@Emmith: It was very clear that Goku only went SSJ to show he had a source of light if he needed one. Heck, Goku even Transforms after bringing it up.
I'm not sure that's entirely true though. He might say that, but in the end resorts to feeding Yakon his SSJ light. He's constantly outputting energy to defeat an enemy, why would he do that if he could simply defeat him by fighting normally. Seems like a waste of energy to me.
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Saberoph Jun 22 2016, 01:31 AM Post #18
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 Well, he only did that because Yakon did it his first Transformation. Also, when he comes up with the idea, he's got a more confident and playful look on his face, he doesn't seem worried.

It's more like Goku wanted to see how much he could absorb before he burst.
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
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+ Emmeth Jun 22 2016, 01:32 AM Post #19
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Saberoph
Jun 22 2016, 01:31 AM
Well, he only did that because Yakon did it his first Transformation. Also, when he comes up with the idea, he's got a more confident and playful look on his face, he doesn't seem worried.

It's more like Goku wanted to see how much he could absorb before he burst.
Which, to me, seems like a waste of energy. The fact that he seemed more confident after getting the idea tells me more of Yakon's power than Goku's.
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+ Six Trails Jun 22 2016, 01:36 AM Post #20
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Saberoph
Jun 22 2016, 01:24 AM
But they were all also in Base, and he never says Transform.

A logical answer would be that he wants them to conserve their Ki if they have to fight Dabra.
It would take Gohan a matter of seconds to just transform and then proceed to one-shot Yakon. Not only that, but he even heard Goku agreeing with Vegeta that Dabra is nothing special right before Goku's fight with Yakon. Does Kaioshin also think Yakon > Dabra?

The most logical answer is just that Kaioshin is being overly cautious and is paranoid because Boo. I use to think that that was a copout, but it makes the most sense. Having Base/Yakon > Kaioshin just requires too much nitpicking.
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Saberoph Jun 22 2016, 01:40 AM Post #21
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 But that still doesn't explain why Yakon couldn't touch Goku even in the dark, and then before going SSJ he's still confident and even results to insults and comes off as toying.

It does seem like a waste, but then again nothing is ever said of Goku losing any energy at all, so he clearly knew what he was doing and remained confident from start to finish of the fight...if you want to call it a fight.

@Mike: Kaioshin's comment of them combined "might" be enough to win...again doesn't come off as confident. It's something that's outright said, and is never contradicted.
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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+ Six Trails Jun 22 2016, 01:43 AM Post #22
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Saberoph
Jun 22 2016, 01:40 AM
@Mike: Kaioshin's comment of them combined "might" be enough to win...again doesn't come off as confident. It's something that's outright said, and is never contradicted.
Which, again, doesn't make sense because the guys he's teamed up with consider the likes of Dabra nothing. Either Kaioshin has to think that Yakon is stronger than both SS2 Gohan and Dabra, or he's not in the right state of mind.
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Saberoph Jun 22 2016, 01:47 AM Post #23
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 Or, he's just taking into consideration what he senses from their Base and wants them to conserve their Ki just in case they have to fight Dabra.

That's not a stretch, because Kaioshin doesn't know these Saiyajins have mastered SSJ. Also, and as far as he knows, Gohan is the only one who is an ASSJ.
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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+ Clearin Jun 22 2016, 01:50 AM Post #24
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 Gohan saying that if he and Goku fight together then they can without "even without" transforming does imply Yakon had the advantage over Goku in the dark.

I know base Goku gave Yakon a bit of trouble even in the dark, but the important thing there is that Yakon expected Goku to be helpless. He didn't expect Goku to "feel the flow of the air currents" (why didn't he just sense him?). Yakon was expecting a completely stationary target that had no idea where he was or which side he was attacking from, he likely wasn't going at Goku with the intent of trying to hit him if he dodged. Goku transforms immediately after Yakon realises this so we don't get a real fight between a serious Yakon and base Goku in the dark.
Edited by Clearin, Jun 22 2016, 01:51 AM.
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+ Emmeth Jun 22 2016, 01:50 AM Post #25
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 I'm just gonna say that I can easily see support for both sides. I'm not subscribing to any of the sides as of now, I think you can make them both work.
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+ Six Trails Jun 22 2016, 01:51 AM Post #26
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Saberoph
Jun 22 2016, 01:47 AM
Or, he's just taking into consideration what he senses from their Base and wants them to conserve their Ki just in case they have to fight Dabra.
So letting Gohan one-shot Yakon in a matter of seconds is considered wasting energy, but Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan all attacking Yakon (who according to you above wouldn't be easy for them to beat) together isn't wasting energy?

Again, he knows Goku and Vegeta both consider Dabra nothing, so he can't possibly be worried about Gohan using a tiny bit of his energy to one-shot Yakon being the determining factor between beating Dabra or not.

Saberoph
 
That's not a stretch, because Kaioshin doesn't know these Saiyajins have mastered SSJ. Also, and as far as he knows, Gohan is the only one who is an ASSJ.
It is a stretch, because he wouldn't even have a reason to believe that being a Super Saiyan puts strain on the body.
Edited by Six Trails, Jun 22 2016, 01:52 AM.
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Saberoph Jun 22 2016, 01:56 AM Post #27
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 But that would imply that he's seen an SSJ without any strain and already knew SSJ can be mastered, but he hasn't. He doesn't know jack squat about the Saiyajins, yet he tries to be all knowing and does come off as an idiot.

Kaioshin was worried from the go about too much power awakening Fat Boo, so Kaioshin not wanting Gohan to use that kind of power does make sense.

@Emmith: There still is more pointing towards Base Saiyajins though. To put Frieza about involves downplaying too much, taking people out of character(which kills the argument right there), and making several excuses(which also kills the argument).
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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+ Emmeth Jun 22 2016, 02:02 AM Post #28
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Saberoph
Jun 22 2016, 01:56 AM
@Emmith: There still is more pointing towards Base Saiyajins though. To put Frieza about involves downplaying too much, taking people out of character(which kills the argument right there), and making several excuses(which also kills the argument).
I don't agree with you and I've (and Mike) already provided you with enough material to support Freeza > Base Saiyans.
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+ Six Trails Jun 22 2016, 02:02 AM Post #29
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Saberoph
Jun 22 2016, 01:56 AM
But that would imply that he's seen an SSJ without any strain and already knew SSJ can be mastered, but he hasn't. He doesn't know jack squat about the Saiyajins, yet he tries to be all knowing and does come off as an idiot.
Are you going to actually address any of my points? You're right, Kaioshin doesn't know jack squat about the Saiyans...so how would even know about the strain of an unmastered Super Saiyan? Literally all he knows about the form is that it makes them stronger.

Saberoph
 
Kaioshin was worried from the go about too much power awakening Fat Boo, so Kaioshin not wanting Gohan to use that kind of power does make sense.
You're implying that Yakon would give SS2 Gohan a tough fight... If Gohan just one-shots Yakon before he can do anything, then no energy will go to Boo because Yakon won't inflict any damage. If Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan all fight in base like you're trying to suggest however, then Yakon would be able to inflict damage that would go to Boo.
Edited by Six Trails, Jun 22 2016, 02:03 AM.
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Saberoph Jun 22 2016, 02:08 AM Post #30
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 @Emmith: It involves taking No. 18 out of character, it also involves completely downplaying every single increase after Frieze to the point it's a joke and makes the increases a joke...which they're implied to be the opposite.

@Mike: You're saying Kaioshin is saying Yakon>ASSJ Gohan, but that's making an assumption, where my argument is going by the form we actually see and Kaioshin never said anything about Transforming. I'm only taking his line as literal...that doesn't make my argument weak.

We all know there is more than one way to interpret something, and all I did was interpret a line as something we literally see, which is one of the ways Toriyama's work can be interpreted.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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