Pyrus

Jun 20 2016, 03:11 PM

Really, guys? We just did this and the thread got locked. Are we that bored to give into this ludicrous endeavor yet again? It's played out.

SSbardock84

Jun 20 2016, 03:12 PM

KidBuu55

Jun 20 2016, 03:10 PM

SSbardock84

Jun 20 2016, 03:00 PM

There is no way Goku can be stronger than Gohan and SS3 Gotenks. I'm so tired of hearing that. I don't care if Toriyama told me to my face that was true I'm not going to believe him because it doesn't show it.

Vegeta was a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought the Fat Majin Buu and he wasn't too far away from him in strength but was still weaker. So when Goku fought Fat Majin Buu he had to go Super Saiyan 3 so he could fight him because he said he wouldn't stand a chance as a Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was far superior to Fat Majin Buu. But then Gotenks came around who was stated that he would be stronger than Fat Majin Buu as a Super Saiyan which he was. So that at least proves that he is above the Super Saiyan 2s. However Majin Buu releases the evil with in him and an even stronger Buu comes out the Gray Evil Buu. The Gray Evil Buu eats the Fat Majin Buu and his power increases even more. Buu is now at a level where Piccolo needs Gotenks to train so he can become stronger. Super Buu proves too much for a Super Saiyan Gotenks who is even stronger than the one who was proven to be stronger than at least a Super Saiyan 2. So he becomes a Super Saiyan 3 which gives him a massive boost in power. And hmmm let's see here if a Super Saiyan Gotenks was proven to be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 Goku then obviously a Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is going to be much much stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Goku. The fight later goes on and you all know how it went and Gohan shows up even stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and mops the floor with Super Buu.

All of that is 100% proof that Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks are stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It can't even begin to remotely make sense when someone says Super Saiyan 3 Goku is the strongest character when nothing points to it.

I read the story, watched the show and read the guidebooks.

All of them say Goku is stronger, and no comment from people on the internet who outright state that they don't even care what the author was trying to portray means there is literally nothing to talk about.

You want to hold your own fiction above Toriyama's work and you expect me (and others) to be ok with that. As long as you realize that Toriyama had Goku as the strongest you can feel however you want.

You didn't even respond to anything I wrote. There is nothing you can argue with because everything points to Ultimate Gohan>Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks>Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

KidBuu55

Jun 20 2016, 03:03 PM

Nagito Komaeda

Jun 20 2016, 02:41 PM

1. Yes, and then he tells Piccolo that he said it. We know he didn't say it to Boo, but what was the point of telling it to Piccolo?

I was waiting for you to post, so I could rip it apart.


1. To build confidence. Goku is literally telling everyone around him that the boys will learn the technique in time and be able to face Buu. That's all there is to it.
He doesn't state that to Buu, and no one ever mentions it again.

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2. He knows how fusion works. He's literally our only way of knowing anything about it until we see it for ourselves. If he doesn't know how strong Gotenks is, then why does he say...

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Pretty confident for a guy who doesn't know how strong Gotenks is gonna be.

2. Yeah, how do you measure KI? How can't you predict a feeling? Kaioshin and Kibito used that Portara and were STILL surprised at how strong Goku and Vegeta had become after fusion - even after they themselves not only witnessed, but were a part of it.

This is CLEARLY Goku gambling on the boys being enough- he actually uses the word "gamble" and mentions this 2 more times.

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3. Does Piccolo not know what he's talking about when SSJ Gotenks forms for the first time then? Goku tells him that Gotenks is gonna be stronger than himself, and Piccolo doesn't think for a second 'Wait, he's not actually as strong as Goku said'?

Huh? Piccolo doesn't make any comparisons to Goku OR Buu.

3. Gotenks first transformation as base Gotenks was followed by praise where people gushed over his power (and he was still weaker than Goku. Because of Gotenks own arrogance, they thought he might of had a chance. Obviously this is false.

Gotenks transforms into a SSJ, and Piccolo states that Gotenks is really powerful - fullstop. There is NO comparison made between Majin Buu OR Goku here. Gotenks can be powerful in his own right and STILL be inferior to Goku, as confirmed by both Gotenks AND Piccolo's statements later.

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4. A stupid fan-theory? Interesting.

A Very stupid one. Not to say I think you're stupid, I just think you're stubborn and in over your head in debates with me, but at least your pleasant.

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5. A form that he's not used to and he's able to suppress it enough to go from being > Ultimate Gohan to < SSJ Gotenks (Pre). Top job, Goku. Also, why didn't he use a bit more strength to force Fat Boo's hand and make him reveal how strong he actually is?

5.
Goku stating that he has to GO ALL OUT, which you imply is effort. The only other quotes I found associated with it is specifically about power:

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Stregth Checker
Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!”
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”
[ ]
Goku: “That’s alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!”

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Strength Checker
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”

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Strength Checker
Chapter: 129, P6.4, P7.1-4, P8.1
Goku: “You really are strong. I’m flabbergasted.”
Tenshinhan: “That’s my line. You’re an amazingly tough bastard…”
Goku: “Knowing you, you won’t die even if I put out my full power, so it looks like I can go all out!”

It's established as synonymous with a POWER quote, not an effort quote.

I'm so glad you walked right into this one, you're my friend but you're wrong on this -This idea that he can't suppress his power isn't stated ANYWHERE.

Here, watch what happens when I substitute effort for power.

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Strength Checker
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had put in maximum effort, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”

So he's asking him literally the same question twice in a row? No, it's clearly a power question:
Watch:

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Strength Checker
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone to your maximum power, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”

Again, Piccolo is speaking of POWER specifically, Goku's response has to do with POWER, and THEN Piccolo brings up EFFORT.

If you stated that Goku was worn out, why would the amount of effort he put out effect his energy consumption? Powering up to maximum is what saps energy, NOT effort:

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Strength Checker
my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate.

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Strength Checker
Vegeta: “Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That’s probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…

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Strength Checker
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

Nagito Komaeda

Jun 20 2016, 03:15 PM

3. Piccolo was told that SSJ Gotenks (Pre) > SSJ3 Goku.

Mr. Hashbrowns

Jun 20 2016, 03:20 PM

Nagito Komaeda

Jun 20 2016, 03:15 PM

3. Piccolo was told that SSJ Gotenks (Pre) > SSJ3 Goku.

I don't think he's denying this. He's saying the SSJ3 Goku that fought Fat Boo wasn't Goku's full power, as evident by him having Goku above Gohan, Gotenks, and Super Boo. So either SSJ2 Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Majin Vegeta, or Goku's SSJ3 boost is laughably large.

He may be the only person on the planet that has Goku's Base below Freeza but his SSJ3 above Ultimate Gohan.

Nagito Komaeda

Jun 20 2016, 03:15 PM

1. What was confidence going to do for Piccolo? Was Goku worried that Piccolo, Piccolo of all people, was just going to call it quits if he didn't lie to his face to try and convince him that Gotenks would be stronger?

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2. Right, Goku's willing to leave the fate of the Earth in the hands of a fighter who's strength is a complete unknown for him. That's utter stupidity, not a 'gamble'. The gamble is whether Goten and Trunks can master fusion before the two days are up.

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3. Piccolo was told that SSJ Gotenks (Pre) > SSJ3 Goku. Unless you can provide a statement where Piccolo outright says that this isn't the case, he thinks that it is. It doesn't matter if you think Goku was lying, what's important is that Piccolo thinks that SSJ Gotenks (Pre) > SSJ3 Goku and, if you think that Goku really had no idea how strong Gotenks would be, this is the best power implication we have for him at this point in the Manga.

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5. Why wouldn't Goku try and draw out all of Fat Boo's power so Piccolo, Goten and Trunks have a better idea of what they're going up against?

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This is an interesting post KidBuu55. Hey so what you think of the quote about Kid Buu being weaker or small or something?

Nagito Komaeda

Jun 20 2016, 03:36 PM

1. The boys weren't even there. He was talking to Piccolo, and Piccolo's never been one to totally lose hope.

2. I thought Goku learned his lesson when Gohan almost died? He's making the exact same mistake again? Well, there's that (which means that Goku's character was totally stagnant over the 7-year gap) or he knows that Gotenks will be stronger for sure.

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Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P10.4, P10.6
Goku: “…Wait for Gohan to get angry…! He’ll…probably…unleash his true power through anger, and suddenly display ferocious strength [ ] …To defeat Cell…The only thing we can do is place our hopes in this power of Gohan’s…”

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”

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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Goku: “No…I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

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3. Goku was basically slapping Piccolo with a stick that had ''Gotenks will be stronger than me'' on it. The comparison is made by Piccolo;

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So you don't know why Goku wouldn't try and force Boo to show the power that he was hiding? It doesn't matter if it isn't his fight, it's outright malicious to not try and give the people fighting a better idea of Boo's power. Yeah, it was difficult to gauge, that's why he should've used more power so it was easier for Piccolo and the others to do so.

Accuse me of swinging blindly all you like.

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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Goku: “I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right?

Nagito Komaeda

Jun 20 2016, 03:53 PM

No, Goku's crazy in this case because he's got this really weird idea about not having a place to save the Earth because he's dead. I'd like to think that he's not completely and utterly insane and knows that Gotenks will be strong enough to take out Fat Boo.

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Come on now, that's a lie and you know it. Piccolo asks about his movement, aka. his speed.

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Come on now, that's a lie and you know it. Piccolo asks about his movement, aka. his speed.

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As for Base Gotenks;

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”

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Piccolo is the constant here. He was right about Base Gotenks not being nearly enough and he's the one commenting on SSJ Gotenks' strength afterwards. We can see that Krillin and Yamcha were wrong about Base Gotenks, the evidence is there. Where's the evidence to say that Piccolo is wrong about SSJ Gotenks' power being what he was promised?

miguelnuva

Jun 20 2016, 12:35 PM

Saberoph

Jun 20 2016, 04:17 AM

You can even argue that not even Anime Goku can't hang either, because yes at points the Anime does point to Goku being stronger but there's still more points that the Anime follows the Manga more than it's own logic.

Anime Goku fought Ultimate Gohan and later did better against Super Buu then Gotenks did. The same Goku was in m13 and BoG later.

Hit

Jun 20 2016, 01:56 PM

Nagito Komaeda

Jun 20 2016, 01:54 PM

Hit

Jun 20 2016, 01:52 PM

ssj gotenks (pre-rosat) >/< ssj3 goku

Get outta here, kid!

I don't think Goku wins any round.