Mr. Hashbrowns

Jun 20 2016, 01:48 PM

Omega Zee

Jun 20 2016, 01:40 PM

Normal Gotenks, Post-RoSaT, is weaker than SS3 Goku.



SS Gotenks, whether it be Pre-RoSaT is stronger than SS3 Goku.

The problem with this is Piccolo's reaction. He goes from thinking SSJ Gotenks pre has no chance against Super Boo, to believing Base Gotenks post may be able to manage something. Keep in mind he doesn't know Gotenks can transform after fusing at this point.

KidBuu55

Jun 20 2016, 02:13 PM

Hit

Jun 20 2016, 01:52 PM

inb4 kidbuu55

if you take the manga at face value then ssj3 gotenks > ssj gotenks (post-rosat) > base gotenks (post-rosat) > ssj gotenks (pre-rosat) >/< ssj3 goku

I own the manga and it doesn't say or imply anything of the sort.

1.The only Remote comparison we are given between Goku and Gotenks is Piccolo's comments on the latter while he's fighting Evil Buu. He states that Gotenks (SSJ3) is the strongest person Buu has faced yet (this is a distinction NOT given to SSJ1 Gotenks, which Piccolo admitted that he didn't think he would be able to do much)

2.There is also the Piccolo, Goten and Trunks mistaking Gohan for Goku upon his arrival to Earth, again indicating Goku's power felt on Earth was VERY close to Gotenks/Gohan (and Goku was holding back)

3. In the anime, Goku denies that the boys have surpassed him, stating that they are talented for achieving the form at a young age.

4. The guidebooks state definitively that Gotenks doesn't even surpass Vegeta until after ROSAT.


So at a minimum, Goku is on SSJ3's Gotenks level - at his best he's FAAAARRRRRRRRR Beyond it (which is literally what the story says)

Omega Zee

Jun 20 2016, 02:25 PM

Mr. Hashbrowns

Jun 20 2016, 01:48 PM

Omega Zee

Jun 20 2016, 01:40 PM

Normal Gotenks, Post-RoSaT, is weaker than SS3 Goku.



SS Gotenks, whether it be Pre-RoSaT is stronger than SS3 Goku.

The problem with this is Piccolo's reaction. He goes from thinking SSJ Gotenks pre has no chance against Super Boo, to believing Base Gotenks post may be able to manage something. Keep in mind he doesn't know Gotenks can transform after fusing at this point.

That whole scene seems to be more for a laugh then anything (although it's true Gotenks powered up), because after Piccolo thinks they might succeed, is shown to take what he said back and that they're doomed, as Super Boo isn't affected by Gotenks' attacks in any way.

Nagito Komaeda

Jun 20 2016, 02:27 PM

KidBuu55

Jun 20 2016, 02:13 PM

Hit

Jun 20 2016, 01:52 PM

inb4 kidbuu55

if you take the manga at face value then ssj3 gotenks > ssj gotenks (post-rosat) > base gotenks (post-rosat) > ssj gotenks (pre-rosat) >/< ssj3 goku

I own the manga and it doesn't say or imply anything of the sort.

1.The only Remote comparison we are given between Goku and Gotenks is Piccolo's comments on the latter while he's fighting Evil Buu. He states that Gotenks (SSJ3) is the strongest person Buu has faced yet (this is a distinction NOT given to SSJ1 Gotenks, which Piccolo admitted that he didn't think he would be able to do much)

2.There is also the Piccolo, Goten and Trunks mistaking Gohan for Goku upon his arrival to Earth, again indicating Goku's power felt on Earth was VERY close to Gotenks/Gohan (and Goku was holding back)

3. In the anime, Goku denies that the boys have surpassed him, stating that they are talented for achieving the form at a young age.

4. The guidebooks state definitively that Gotenks doesn't even surpass Vegeta until after ROSAT.


So at a minimum, Goku is on SSJ3's Gotenks level - at his best he's FAAAARRRRRRRRR Beyond it (which is literally what the story says)

1. Goku says that SSJ Gotenks (Pre) will be stronger than himself;

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).

Piccolo doesn't disagree with the notion;

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

If you're going to say that this wasn't anywhere near Goku's full power, can you explain to me how he's able to suppress to such a massive degree in a form that he's not used to?

Chapter: 474 (DBZ 280), P3.3-8, P4.1, P7.5
Goku: “First, this is my regular state. This is Super Saiyan. Then this is what I showed your before, a Super Saiyan that has surpassed Super Saiyan…’Super Saiyan 2’, you could call it. [ ] And so…[ ] This…Ev-even further surpasses that…[ ] …This is Super Saiyan 3. Sorry that took so long. I’m still not used to this transformation.”

2. Even if we assume that Goku was holding back, SSJ Gotenks (Pre) was comparable to him. So unless you think that Gotenks' boost from SSJ to SSJ3, along with the gap between SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan, was unbelievably small, SSJ3 Goku's power wouldn't be anywhere near Gohan's.

3. That's cool and all, but in the Manga he admitted that Gotenks would be stronger than him Pre-RoSaT in his regular SSJ form and it's never contradicted.

4. That contradicts what we're given in the Manga, so Manga - 1, Guidebooks - 0.

KidBuu55

Jun 20 2016, 02:32 PM

Nagito Komaeda

Jun 20 2016, 02:27 PM

KidBuu55

Jun 20 2016, 02:13 PM

Hit

Jun 20 2016, 01:52 PM

inb4 kidbuu55

if you take the manga at face value then ssj3 gotenks > ssj gotenks (post-rosat) > base gotenks (post-rosat) > ssj gotenks (pre-rosat) >/< ssj3 goku

I own the manga and it doesn't say or imply anything of the sort.

1.The only Remote comparison we are given between Goku and Gotenks is Piccolo's comments on the latter while he's fighting Evil Buu. He states that Gotenks (SSJ3) is the strongest person Buu has faced yet (this is a distinction NOT given to SSJ1 Gotenks, which Piccolo admitted that he didn't think he would be able to do much)

2.There is also the Piccolo, Goten and Trunks mistaking Gohan for Goku upon his arrival to Earth, again indicating Goku's power felt on Earth was VERY close to Gotenks/Gohan (and Goku was holding back)

3. In the anime, Goku denies that the boys have surpassed him, stating that they are talented for achieving the form at a young age.

4. The guidebooks state definitively that Gotenks doesn't even surpass Vegeta until after ROSAT.


So at a minimum, Goku is on SSJ3's Gotenks level - at his best he's FAAAARRRRRRRRR Beyond it (which is literally what the story says)

1. Goku says that SSJ Gotenks (Pre) will be stronger than himself;

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).

Piccolo doesn't disagree with the notion;

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

If you're going to say that this wasn't anywhere near Goku's full power, can you explain to me how he's able to suppress to such a massive degree in a form that he's not used to?

Chapter: 474 (DBZ 280), P3.3-8, P4.1, P7.5
Goku: “First, this is my regular state. This is Super Saiyan. Then this is what I showed your before, a Super Saiyan that has surpassed Super Saiyan…’Super Saiyan 2’, you could call it. [ ] And so…[ ] This…Ev-even further surpasses that…[ ] …This is Super Saiyan 3. Sorry that took so long. I’m still not used to this transformation.”

2. Even if we assume that Goku was holding back, SSJ Gotenks (Pre) was comparable to him. So unless you think that Gotenks' boost from SSJ to SSJ3, along with the gap between SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan, was unbelievably small, SSJ3 Goku's power wouldn't be anywhere near Gohan's.

3. That's cool and all, but in the Manga he admitted that Gotenks would be stronger than him Pre-RoSaT in his regular SSJ form and it's never contradicted.

4. That contradicts what we're given in the Manga, so Manga - 1, Guidebooks - 0.

He doesn't, He tells Piccolo that he TOLD Buu that, so they should have 2 days.

1. We know he doesn't say this, not in the manga or anime. When Buu asks if the fighter (Gotenks) will be strong, Goku ignores the question and continues to speak.

2. Goku has NEVER sensed Gotenks.

3. No one ever brings up this comparison ever. I fact, Piccolo calls Gotenks STRONG (stating his power is impressive) but there is NO comparison made to anyone. In fact, the only time Gotenks calls himself "the strongest" is AFTER he achieves his SSJ3 form.

4. I already provided the statements from the manga that prove this is a stupid fan theory.

5. Goku was clearly suppressed.

KidBuu55

Jun 20 2016, 02:41 PM

For the record, Goku is literally like Beerus compared to Gohan and Gotenks - he suppressed his power so much JUST to not embarrass them.

Seriously.

Nagito Komaeda

Jun 20 2016, 02:41 PM

1. Yes, and then he tells Piccolo that he said it. We know he didn't say it to Boo, but what was the point of telling it to Piccolo?

Quote:

 

2. He knows how fusion works. He's literally our only way of knowing anything about it until we see it for ourselves. If he doesn't know how strong Gotenks is, then why does he say...

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Pretty confident for a guy who doesn't know how strong Gotenks is gonna be.

Quote:

 

3. Does Piccolo not know what he's talking about when SSJ Gotenks forms for the first time then? Goku tells him that Gotenks is gonna be stronger than himself, and Piccolo doesn't think for a second 'Wait, he's not actually as strong as Goku said'?

Quote:

 

4. A stupid fan-theory? Interesting.

Quote:

 

5. A form that he's not used to and he's able to suppress it enough to go from being > Ultimate Gohan to < SSJ Gotenks (Pre). Top job, Goku. Also, why didn't he use a bit more strength to force Fat Boo's hand and make him reveal how strong he actually is?

Quote:

 

Stregth Checker
Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!”
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”
[ ]
Goku: “That’s alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!”

Quote:

 

Strength Checker
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”

Quote:

 

Strength Checker
Chapter: 129, P6.4, P7.1-4, P8.1
Goku: “You really are strong. I’m flabbergasted.”
Tenshinhan: “That’s my line. You’re an amazingly tough bastard…”
Goku: “Knowing you, you won’t die even if I put out my full power, so it looks like I can go all out!”

Quote:

 

Strength Checker
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had put in maximum effort, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”

Quote:

 

Strength Checker
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone to your maximum power, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”

Quote:

 

Strength Checker
my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate.

Quote:

 

Strength Checker
Vegeta: “Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That’s probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…

Quote:

 

Strength Checker
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

SSbardock84

Jun 20 2016, 03:00 PM

There is no way Goku can be stronger than Gohan and SS3 Gotenks. I'm so tired of hearing that. I don't care if Toriyama told me to my face that was true I'm not going to believe him because it doesn't show it.

Vegeta was a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought the Fat Majin Buu and he wasn't too far away from him in strength but was still weaker. So when Goku fought Fat Majin Buu he had to go Super Saiyan 3 so he could fight him because he said he wouldn't stand a chance as a Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was far superior to Fat Majin Buu. But then Gotenks came around who was stated that he would be stronger than Fat Majin Buu as a Super Saiyan which he was. So that at least proves that he is above the Super Saiyan 2s. However Majin Buu releases the evil with in him and an even stronger Buu comes out the Gray Evil Buu. The Gray Evil Buu eats the Fat Majin Buu and his power increases even more. Buu is now at a level where Piccolo needs Gotenks to train so he can become stronger. Super Buu proves too much for a Super Saiyan Gotenks who is even stronger than the one who was proven to be stronger than at least a Super Saiyan 2. So he becomes a Super Saiyan 3 which gives him a massive boost in power. And hmmm let's see here if a Super Saiyan Gotenks was proven to be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 Goku then obviously a Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is going to be much much stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Goku. The fight later goes on and you all know how it went and Gohan shows up even stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and mops the floor with Super Buu.

All of that is 100% proof that Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks are stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It can't even begin to remotely make sense when someone says Super Saiyan 3 Goku is the strongest character when nothing points to it.

KidBuu55

Jun 20 2016, 03:10 PM

SSbardock84

Jun 20 2016, 03:00 PM

There is no way Goku can be stronger than Gohan and SS3 Gotenks. I'm so tired of hearing that. I don't care if Toriyama told me to my face that was true I'm not going to believe him because it doesn't show it.

Vegeta was a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought the Fat Majin Buu and he wasn't too far away from him in strength but was still weaker. So when Goku fought Fat Majin Buu he had to go Super Saiyan 3 so he could fight him because he said he wouldn't stand a chance as a Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was far superior to Fat Majin Buu. But then Gotenks came around who was stated that he would be stronger than Fat Majin Buu as a Super Saiyan which he was. So that at least proves that he is above the Super Saiyan 2s. However Majin Buu releases the evil with in him and an even stronger Buu comes out the Gray Evil Buu. The Gray Evil Buu eats the Fat Majin Buu and his power increases even more. Buu is now at a level where Piccolo needs Gotenks to train so he can become stronger. Super Buu proves too much for a Super Saiyan Gotenks who is even stronger than the one who was proven to be stronger than at least a Super Saiyan 2. So he becomes a Super Saiyan 3 which gives him a massive boost in power. And hmmm let's see here if a Super Saiyan Gotenks was proven to be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 Goku then obviously a Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is going to be much much stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Goku. The fight later goes on and you all know how it went and Gohan shows up even stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and mops the floor with Super Buu.

All of that is 100% proof that Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks are stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It can't even begin to remotely make sense when someone says Super Saiyan 3 Goku is the strongest character when nothing points to it.

I read the story, watched the show and read the guidebooks.

All of them say Goku is stronger, and no comment from people on the internet who outright state that they don't even care what the author was trying to portray means there is literally nothing to talk about.

You want to hold your own fiction above Toriyama's work and you expect me (and others) to be ok with that. As long as you realize that Toriyama had Goku as the strongest you can feel however you want.