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chapter 13 of the manga
Topic Started: Jun 18 2016, 07:15 PM (9,996 Views)
Goddess Ultimecia Jun 18 2016, 11:26 PM Post #16
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 Personally, I go with whatever has more of Toriyama's hand in it as being canon.
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Tinny Jun 18 2016, 11:31 PM Post #17
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Solid Snake
Jun 18 2016, 11:18 PM
EMIYA
 
But at least that whole Kaioken thing was essentially filler.


Where you get at thinking Super's anime is filler? Or is the manga your canon?
Will considering Toriyama is more involved with the manga than the anime and that kkx10 turned the gods into liars and/or invalidated every substantial piece of spoken statements regarding Goku and Vegeta's power relative to Beerus, I can see why he'd say the anime is filler. Honestly I think this as well, might not have the best pacing but it doesn't contradict itself like the anime does. Plus no twenty minutes dedicated to bad Photoshop effects.

And yeah technically there's no official canon, but the manga generally seems to know what's going on, the anime turned Whis and Beerus into habitual liars.
Edited by Tinny, Jun 18 2016, 11:33 PM.
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EMIYA Jun 18 2016, 11:38 PM Post #18
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"I am the bone of my sword."
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jun 18 2016, 11:05 PM
EMIYA
Jun 18 2016, 10:51 PM
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Goku is stronger than Hit in terms of pure power with just SS, but he uses up too much stamina to keep up in that form. Goes SSG.


*Long and deeply held in venomous sigh*

So the form that you mastered so well in the ROSAT to the point where you could walk around entire days calmly with it...uses too much stamina. My goodness if its not one inconsistency its another.

But at least that whole Kaioken thing was essentially filler.

Er, I'd argue the form itself isn't burning stamina, the battle itself is forcing a loss of stamina. I mean, Goku lost stamina when fighting Cell, so I don't see why this would be any different.
Fair enough but at the same time like (Nagito?) said, it feels strange to switch to a form he's probably barely used or mastered to try to conserve stamina.

Quote:
 
Where you get at thinking Super's anime is filler? Or is the manga your canon?


Anything that the Toriyama is more in control of I choose. It's obvious that Toriyama is much more involved in the manga than the anime. For example the anime has Frog Ginyu who was literally filler in the original anime.
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+ Solid Snake Jun 18 2016, 11:47 PM Post #19
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滅Are you frightened?
EMIYA
Jun 18 2016, 11:38 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jun 18 2016, 11:05 PM
EMIYA
Jun 18 2016, 10:51 PM
Quote:
 
Goku is stronger than Hit in terms of pure power with just SS, but he uses up too much stamina to keep up in that form. Goes SSG.


*Long and deeply held in venomous sigh*

So the form that you mastered so well in the ROSAT to the point where you could walk around entire days calmly with it...uses too much stamina. My goodness if its not one inconsistency its another.

But at least that whole Kaioken thing was essentially filler.

Er, I'd argue the form itself isn't burning stamina, the battle itself is forcing a loss of stamina. I mean, Goku lost stamina when fighting Cell, so I don't see why this would be any different.
Fair enough but at the same time like (Nagito?) said, it feels strange to switch to a form he's probably barely used or mastered to try to conserve stamina.

Quote:
 
Where you get at thinking Super's anime is filler? Or is the manga your canon?


Anything that the Toriyama is more in control of I choose. It's obvious that Toriyama is much more involved in the manga than the anime. For example the anime has Frog Ginyu who was literally filler in the original anime.
How does that mean he has less control?
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Tinny Jun 18 2016, 11:48 PM Post #20
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 He has less control because he exerts less control.
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+ Solid Snake Jun 18 2016, 11:53 PM Post #21
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滅Are you frightened?
Tinny
Jun 18 2016, 11:48 PM
He has less control because he exerts less control.
I'm not bout to turn this into a debate but if this is preference of choosing what ya guys want as your canon then that's cool. If ya suggesting the manga's the legit canon, then I'd like to see confirmation from official sources then. Cause I'm pretty sure Toei owns Dragon Ball too.
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Tinny Jun 19 2016, 12:00 AM Post #22
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Solid Snake
Jun 18 2016, 11:53 PM
Tinny
Jun 18 2016, 11:48 PM
He has less control because he exerts less control.
I'm not bout to turn this into a debate but if this is preference of choosing what ya guys want as your canon then that's cool. If ya suggesting the manga's the legit canon, then I'd like to see confirmation from official sources then. Cause I'm pretty sure Toei owns Dragon Ball too.


Tinny
Jun 18 2016, 11:31 PM
Solid Snake
Jun 18 2016, 11:18 PM
EMIYA
 
But at least that whole Kaioken thing was essentially filler.


Where you get at thinking Super's anime is filler? Or is the manga your canon?
Will considering Toriyama is more involved with the manga than the anime and that kkx10 turned the gods into liars and/or invalidated every substantial piece of spoken statements regarding Goku and Vegeta's power relative to Beerus, I can see why he'd say the anime is filler. Honestly I think this as well, might not have the best pacing but it doesn't contradict itself like the anime does. Plus no twenty minutes dedicated to bad Photoshop effects.

And yeah technically there's no official canon, but the manga generally seems to know what's going on, the anime turned Whis and Beerus into habitual liars.


I've already given my view on this.
There technically is no official canon, but there's a reason we primarily use the manga rather than the Big Green or English funimation dub.
Edited by Tinny, Jun 19 2016, 12:01 AM.
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Judau Ashtha Jun 19 2016, 12:22 AM Post #23
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 @So the form that you mastered so well in the ROSAT to the point where you could walk around entire days calmly with it...uses too much stamina. My goodness if its not one inconsistency its another.

Goku and Gohan have mastered their bodies in SSJ and gotten used to being in SSJ for and up till their CG powers only. When they surpassed their CG powers or increased their powers further they would have to again get used to being in SSJ and master their new bodies in SSJ for their increased power, if they want to negate the stamina and endurance issues while utilizing SSJ.
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Goddess Ultimecia Jun 19 2016, 12:30 AM Post #24
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 Goku and Vegeta spent literal years in Whis' staff training did they not?
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lazerbem Jun 19 2016, 12:32 AM Post #25
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 They were evidently spending time with their thumb up their tookuses given that the end result of their training is making the same mistake that Vegeta did back in the Cell Games back with ASSJ. Seriously, how would Vegeta of all people ever approve of a form like SSJB that exhausts someone just by transforming into it? Isn't this the same guy who was talking about how Goku was a genius for lessening the strain of the forms?
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Goddess Ultimecia Jun 19 2016, 12:33 AM Post #26
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lazerbem
Jun 19 2016, 12:32 AM
They were evidently spending time with their thumb up their tookuses given that the end result of their training is making the same mistake that Vegeta did back in the Cell Games back with ASSJ. Seriously, how would Vegeta of all people ever approve of a form like SSJB that exhausts someone just by transforming into it? Isn't this the same guy who was talking about how Goku was a genius for lessening the strain of the forms?
*Insert shallow workaround for gap of logic in Toyatoro and AT's storywriting*

Edit: *Shallow workaround that ends up making the characters look even more stupid than before*
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Jun 19 2016, 12:34 AM.
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+ Clearin Jun 19 2016, 12:34 AM Post #27
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 Shame they didn't have the Kaioken scene, it was one the best parts of Super for me.

It looks like it introduced a ton of other questionable stuff. SSj Blue apparently drains your stamina so fast that Vegeta just demonstrating it for Cabba brought him to 1/10th power, even though Goku had a full fight with Freeza in the form. And why is Super Saiyan God now a form Goku can use at any time?
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EMIYA Jun 19 2016, 12:34 AM Post #28
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 Why would being stronger make you have less stamina? The exact opposite should be true. The stronger you get, the more stamina you should have. Look at Kaioken. In the past Goku could barely hold onto X4. But after some training and getting stronger, he's casually popping out X10 and even going as far as to use X20 with a Kamehameha on top and still has room to breathe.

Getting stronger shouldn't make a form you specifically took to get rid of this stamina issue become an issue again. Even on a real life scale that holds true. The more you work out and improve your body, the more stamina and energy going to have. So this transformation that was designed to nullify stamina issues should still remain in effect regardless of how strong Goku is.
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Judau Ashtha Jun 19 2016, 12:45 AM Post #29
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 @They were evidently spending time with their thumb up their tookuses given that the end result of their training is making the same mistake that Vegeta did back in the Cell Games back with ASSJ. Seriously, how would Vegeta of all people ever approve of a form like SSJB that exhausts someone just by transforming into it? Isn't this the same guy who was talking about how Goku was a genius for lessening the strain of the forms?

True. But, it's best to think that the concept of Mastering the transformations exists only in the context of the Android/Cell Arc. It's basically a concept that's has been sadly deprecated after the Cell Arc and should only be mentioned or considered within the Android/Cell arc.

@Why would being stronger make you have less stamina? The exact opposite should be true. The stronger you get, the more stamina you should have. Look at Kaioken. In the past Goku could barely hold onto X4. But after some training and getting stronger, he's casually popping out X10 and even going as far as to use X20 with a Kamehameha on top and still has room to breathe.

@Getting stronger shouldn't make a form you specifically took to get rid of this stamina issue become an issue again. Even on a real life scale that holds true. The more you work out and improve your body, the more stamina and energy going to have. So this transformation that was designed to nullify stamina issues should still remain in effect regardless of how strong Goku is.

True. But, after the Cell Arc I think they mostly trained in their base forms only. So, basically what you said holds true for their base power but it most likely doesn't hold for their base power plus the power boost provide by the transformations because they most likely never trained with their transformations like in the Cell Arc. And, like I said before, it's probably best to think that the concept of Mastering the transformations exists only in the context of the Android/Cell Arc, until of course it is reintroduced.
Edited by Judau Ashtha, Jun 19 2016, 01:03 AM.
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EMIYA Jun 19 2016, 12:58 AM Post #30
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 Then that's honestly just bad writing. I'm not going to ask that Toriyama remember every last thing in his manga. But it would be nice if he took the time to at least...read through what he does or think about what he write...or accepts from other people. But no, as he states, he doesn't care about consistency and that's why we have all these problems.

He's honestly becoming the Michael Bay of mangakas. He'd rather thrown down a bunch of stuff for "entertainment" purposes without actually bothering to check on his own work. And it's causing it to have multiple problems.
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And wow, Bluper Saiyan is awful! I mean this is easily the worst transformation ever. You barely do anything and you lose 90% of your power? I'd rather have USSJ. I might be slow but it at least lasts and at some point I'm probably going to hit something eventually..
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