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| Goku vs Frieza | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 17 2016, 04:42 PM (2,508 Views) | |
| Notaka | Jun 18 2016, 01:18 AM Post #76 |
Always Wright
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He contradicts himself by saying he wins against everyone, including Piccolo without the use of Super Saiyan and a Goku he doesn't even know how strong he got. even though he's later stated to be barely stronger than Cell Games Gohan. Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P2.3 Context: as Vegeta fights Boo Piccolo: “He’s already surpassed Super Saiyan as well…This is tremendous power…Perhaps even greater than Gohan’s when he fought Cell…” Now unless you have Cell Games Base Gohan > Piccolo(which is clearly not the case), this is a contradiction. @Nagito: All characters have been arrogant and wrong at one time. However, no one is as arrogant as Vegeta. That's a defining part of his character. He'll even think he'd win against someone he clearly has no chance of winning against. Remember how he striked Cell with his Best kick ? Cell shrug it off like it was nothing. Vegeta still thought he could win. If it was Goku who stated that, i'd maybe take it with a grain of salt. Edited by Notaka, Jun 18 2016, 01:25 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Jun 18 2016, 01:28 AM Post #77 |
 
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So you don't have any actual statement or feat to prove him wrong. You're just using his arrogance, which isn't evidence. I don't see what Piccolo has to do with this. |
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| Notaka | Jun 18 2016, 01:31 AM Post #78 |
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Always Wright
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His arrogance is an evidence, and a very strong one. Hard to take someone seriously when all what he basically says is:"I'm stronger than every one." Piccolo has alot to do with this. Vegeta didn't specifically mention 18. he said that he'd win against everyone. including Piccolo and Goku who he doesn't even know his power. Now how about you give me a feat or statement that puts him above 18 ? |
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| EMIYA | Jun 18 2016, 01:32 AM Post #79 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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There's...not a single thing saying Cell Games Gohan can't be stronger than Piccolo, even if its just Base. That seems to be an issue here. People seem to be under some impression that Base Saiyans can't be stronger when absolutely nothing states this. People try to claim, well he fought against the Cell Juniors...no he didn't, he got his a*** beat. Or they try to claim, well he was still standing. So what? Even if Piccolo is stronger than Base Vegeta in the Cell Games, this is not the Cell Games anymore...this is the Boo Arc. It doesn't help that amplifications later on are implied to be much lower, especially considering Toriyama originally envisioned a 10x gap. Like there is literally nothing that says Base Boo Arc Vegeta can't defeat Piccolo. Also mean the part where Vegeta had his Final Flash and it nearly caught Cell off guard and blasted his arm off? |
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| lazerbem | Jun 18 2016, 01:34 AM Post #80 |
 
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Goku was still standing after the a*** whooping 50% Freeza dealt him. Standing doesn't mean anything |
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| + Pyrus | Jun 18 2016, 01:50 AM Post #81 |
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I actually don't have to because you're arguing against the character. You have to prove the character wrong, not the other way around. Arrogance is not evidence – it's a personality trait. If we went around claiming arrogance, everyone in the manga could be tossed out, from Goku to Boo to Piccolo himself. |
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| EMIYA | Jun 18 2016, 01:51 AM Post #82 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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And arrogance while were at it, doesn't act as a deterrent to what a character says. Vegeta thought he was going to kick Dodoria's fat, pink, buttt...and he did. He thought he was going to wreck No. 19 and Pui Pui...and he did. He thought he was going to make a mockery out of Semi-Perfect Cell...and he did. He thought he was going to grab all the Dragon Balls and sneak away right under Freeza's nose...and he did. Vegeta thought he was going to kick Zarbon's butt and until he transformed...he did. He thought he was going to beat Goku...and much as he thinks he didn't...he did! Vegeta doesn't seem to grasp that, in the end he was stronger than Goku. He took EVERYTHING Goku had, from the Kaioken, to the Kamehameha to a freaking Genki-Dama, took all of that to the face and was still moving. Bad luck on his part that Gohan still had a tail. In the end, Vegeta lost more to the Earth than he did to Goku. People want to call Vegeta out on arrogance but as noted above, I can name plenty of times when Vegeta talked s*** and then took his opponents mouth, opened it, leaned his pasty white butt down and took a huge one down there to prove his dominance. |
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| + Pyrus | Jun 18 2016, 01:53 AM Post #83 |
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Disregarding Vegeta because of arrogance is ludicrous. Until a character is proven wrong by a contradicting feat or statement, that character is assumed to be correct. That's basic literature. A character's words/actions progress the story.
Edited by Pyrus, Jun 18 2016, 01:54 AM.
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| Slifer | Jun 18 2016, 01:59 AM Post #84 |
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Mecha Freeza says he can probably handle Goku alone: We believe him. Vegeta says he can beat Dabura alone: We believe him. SSJ3 Goku says he can kill Kid Boo with a full-power attack: We believe him. Piccolo says android-arc Vegeta is probably stronger than Goku: We believe him. Vegeta says he, Gohan, and Krillin may be able to beat first form Freeza: We believe him. Goku says he and Vegeta can't handle Super Boo without fusion: We believe him. Vegeta says he can with the tournament in Base: He's an arrogant liar. wut. |
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| + Solid Snake | Jun 18 2016, 02:04 AM Post #85 |
滅Are you frightened?
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Lazuli couldn't knock em out and resorted to disqualifying them via two people fighting at once. It shouldn't matter if she can instantly win. She wanted money not a sparring/ handicap match up with a "human". You say ragdolls, when Mighty Mask recovers, he's not hurt at all. A lesser devastating kick broke Super Saiyan Vegeta's arm. Surely one of those kicks would've done much more to the kids who're "weaker" then that Vegeta. Oh, how you know he's stronger though? Piccolo obviously trained, no getting around that, but he was deemed irrelevant in this particular saga by Dabura (who thought Super Saiyan was just a glow) saying only three of the group were to enormous energies, with no knowledge of them transforming too. Is it bulls*** though? Gohan Ultimate status had a much bigger gap then this fantasied one with Piccolo, and Goku thought a fusion of them two fused could beat Buutenks. I'm pretty sure a fusion of Goku and Piccolo, with Piccolo being strong as hell, would've toppled Majin Buu in that case. Super is my jammy jam, it no way stated Goku's full power in base is inferior to Frieza. Goku walks around with a Battle Power of around 5,000 on days we seen. So in relation to the statement, Goku's 5,000 is definitely lower then Frieza's 120,000,000. |
 Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| lazerbem | Jun 18 2016, 02:06 AM Post #86 |
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Another thing is that no one corrects Vegeta. You'd think Piccolo or 18 would have basically patted his head and gone "that's cute" to Vegeta, it's not like they've been shown to be reticent on their power before. Hell, Krillin has been plenty vocal on Vegeta's limits in the past too
Edited by lazerbem, Jun 18 2016, 02:06 AM.
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| Notaka | Jun 18 2016, 02:06 AM Post #87 |
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Always Wright
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He did get his a** beat. He still was able to fend off against the Cell jr. He took more damage than the Saiyans, obviously but was somewhat still standing on his toes, which hint at the existence of a struggle. Vegeta and Trunks both needed SSJ to somewhat even have a chance of beating these monstrosity. If they were as strong as Piccolo in base, then they would have literally one shot them in their SSJ forms. They didn't. Unless you're going to say the Cell Jr's are 50x stronger than Piccolo. Even if SSJ Vegeta was like 2x stronger than Piccolo, Piccolo is like what ? 25 times stronger than him in base ? And the Boo arc doesn't mean s*it. Vegeta just got stronger to the point where he's only slightly stronger than Gohan, and that's with the majin boost. He was already stronger than him at 50% of his power, so he probably didn't even get two times stronger. even if he did, Piccolo is still a dozen times stronger than him. Your logic doesn't work, unless you have SSJ as minuscule boost. However, if they are implied to be much lower as you claim, I'd like proof. Sure: 1.Cell underestimated Vegeta and paid his price for it. fortunately for him, he can regenerate. 2.This technique makes Vegeta stronger. if he ripped his arm off then Vegeta got probably stronger than Cell at that moment. Cell only survived because he barely dodged.
Compare Goku with Piccolo then: Piccolo was less damaged than Goku was. Then you add in the fact that Frieza was toying with him. We don't know if the Cell Jr toyed with Piccolo. |
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| + Pyrus | Jun 18 2016, 02:12 AM Post #88 |
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We do know the Cell Junior toyed with Piccolo. It's shown that they're goofing off with everyone except Vegeta and Trunks, where we see them actually exerting some effort into the fights. |
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| lazerbem | Jun 18 2016, 02:13 AM Post #89 |
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@Notaka That doesn't mean anything either. Krillin did worse than Yamcha or Tien against the Cell Juniors and Goku was performing about as well as they were anyway. If you take the Cell Junior positions as the truest word, then Trunks(never got hit)>Vegeta(hit one)>Piccolo(still standing)>Tien(still on his feet after a kick)>Yamcha(took several hits to bring down)>Goku(floored in two hits)>Krillin(Floored in a single hit) Edited by lazerbem, Jun 18 2016, 02:13 AM.
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| Notaka | Jun 18 2016, 02:35 AM Post #90 |
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Always Wright
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Why would I have to prove him wrong, while in-universe he always gets proven wrong ? Would you take seriously a character who in-universe get wronged ? A character personality can be used be as evidence. If a character's personality is someone who gets mistaken a lot, then you can't believe what he says. He needs SSJ to beat a Cell jr, while Piccolo can fend off against one. How in the world does that equates to Base Vegeta > Piccolo ?
These are all believable except the last one. Try beating someone a dozen times stronger than you, buddy.
She tried to resort it after realizing that it was Goten and Trunks. She wanted money, yes but what if she kills him by accident ? she wouldn't win the prize money then. so what's the best way to do it ? it's to either toss him out of the ring or knock him out. both are hard to do: He can fly, so a ring out is out of the question. Knock him out, she doesn't even know his full power. It would be hard for her to use enough power to knock him out. How is she gonna knock out someone she doesn't even know the full power of ? how is she going to determine the power needed ? Even if he wasn't hurt, he was getting dominated by 18. he couldn't even land a punch. He had to use Super Saiyan to defeat her, and this is where he exposed himself. And comparing the kick to Vegeta isn't fair. She isn't trying to kill mighty mask. She wasn't trying to kill Vegeta too but she wasn't holding back against him either, unlike mighty mask who she was obviously suppressing herself against. Dabura doesn't know about transformation, fair point. But what he knew is that the saiyans had immense source of energy, so he thought that the others were trash. but guess what all this energy came from ? From SSJ2 Gohan, and not base. if Dabura knew about the transformation, he'd notice Piccolo was stronger than them untransformed and will probably take his energy. All-in-all he probably thought the saiyans were stronger and just assumed they were hiding their power, when in fact they need to transform in order to do so. Yes, it's bulls*it because at this point only a potara fusion was strong enough to beat Buu. I'm pretty sure he could have beaten Buu if fused with Piccolo. Goku was literally thinking of fusing with Dende, and Hercule. Just showing how optimistic he was. The problem is, Goku doesn't prove Beerus wrong and King Kai agrees with Beerus. Like I said, If Goku was stronger, why couldn't he just said to Beerus:"I could beat Frieza without transforming."
Same thing could be said for Beerus. No one corrected him, They even agree with him and don't even argue. @Pyrus: Do we ? I too think they toyed with him but were at least somewhat serious with him.
Goku wasn't even fighting back. He was too tired from the fight. Might aswell consider him weaker than Krillin at this point. What I'm trying to say is, The Cell jr toyed with everyone, only Vegeta and Trunks were still standing off strong. Piccolo was too standing off but took far more damage than Both of them. the rest were lying down from too much damage. Edited by Notaka, Jun 18 2016, 02:38 AM.
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