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Is There A Way to Justify Dabra>Super Perfect Cell?
Topic Started: Jun 13 2016, 11:33 PM (5,905 Views)
+ Pyrus Jun 16 2016, 08:40 PM Post #91
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KidBuu55
Jun 16 2016, 05:44 PM
Pyrus
Jun 16 2016, 04:37 PM
Gohan had to have at least been prepared to tank that generic ki blast. He knew it was heading Vegeta's way. It says more about Cell's strength that Gohan lost a chunk of his power.
Gohan was off guard, that's all there is too it.
How could he be off-guard when he saw the blast coming? He flew right into its path. Unless he was having a spur of the moment hero urge to randomly save Vegeta, he had to have a reason to be jolting over there. I could understand not having his guard up for a blast equivalent to a Kamehameha, since by all means Cell's attack looked like a lazily tossed out generic blast, but then that just speaks to Cell's power that something so insignificant-looking could hold enough power to demoralize and handicap Gohan so badly.

@Thiln: Goku's aura didn't appear until he'd gone past half, didn't it? I figured that was the groundwork for such a claim. Although since Goku had mastered the form and was only using it as a light source, it's reasonable to presume he didn't even need to be revving past 50% to have an aura.
Edited by Pyrus, Jun 16 2016, 08:41 PM.
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EMIYA Jun 16 2016, 08:44 PM Post #92
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Also, wasn't pre-power-loss-Gohan more than willing to fight SSJ2 Cell upon his return? And after taking the blast to save Vegeta, he says that Cell's power had gone up "more than he thought", not more than his own. Cell's power increase has been amply noted, but it's never once stated to have surpassed Gohan's - Gohan's, however, is stated to have dropped considerably. Yet, he's still so strong that Cell can't instantly overpower his Kamehameha.


Well just because Gohan doesn't say "gone up more than his own" doesn't necessarily negate the possibility. However I think its rather clear that the point is that, Cell is now much stronger than he was before. It certainly doesn't build it up that Cell has a huge superiority, in fact Cell is rather subtle on the point, merely saying that the fight won't go as well for Gohan as it did last time.

At this point, having been beaten around by Gohan, Cell is far more prepared for Gohan's strength and knows what to expect. Meanwhile, Gohan I'm sure knows Cell has powered up but he's yet to actually face this new power of his. He's completely unaware of just how strong Cell has become. For Gohan, this fight might be something like Goku vs Cell. He might have to keep his defenses up more, maybe Cell might land a hit or two, but he's confident because he was a few moments ago, wrecking his face.

But that ignorance costs him, he underestimates Cell far too much and it ends up damaging him greatly. It's only afterwards that Gohan realizes that Cell is an actual threat. The opposite of Cell whom, as much as he might mock Gohan, still treated him with some semblance of a threat until he docked his ki.

I think in the end, Gohan was high on power. He had already owned Cell, it wasn't his job to prove his superiority. It was now time for Cell to prove if getting that Zenkai was worth it. Unfortunately for Gohan, it kind of was.

Also yeah, the manga is so much different than the anime. It's not surprising when I think people think of the anime version first hand, just because its so much better.
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+ Sandy Shore Jun 16 2016, 09:27 PM Post #93
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EMIYA
Jun 16 2016, 08:44 PM
merely saying that the fight won't go as well for Gohan as it did last time.
That in itself might imply his inferiority, and simply state that he's now within range to be fighting him. Not inherently so, of course. I like your comparison to the Goku vs Cell fight, but I would put Cell in the position Goku previously held. However, Cell's victory becomes practically assured when Gohan, who we both agree has under estimated his opponent—though, with no confirmation of being inferior to him—allows himself to take a crippling blast in a last ditch effort to save Vegeta's life.*

If Cell were already superior to Gohan, then I just don't see how Gohan could put up any resistance with less than half the power he had previously, and without any implication I can see that Cell was holding back. He'd be about 2.5 x weaker than him at that point.

Since Cell isn't stated to have surpassed or even equaled Gohan, I think it all makes more sense with him only having achieved enough power to fight against Gohan, not over-power him.

*Base Vegeta managed to knock the unaware Cell off his game with a nothing-special-blast, and he's got to be at least fifty-times weaker than Cell, so I don't see any reason Cell couldn't severely damage the compromised Gohan at only 1.3 x weaker.
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Thiln Jun 16 2016, 10:00 PM Post #94
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 I think Goku explained to Karin how he had powered up only to 50%. This is the page showing him powering up.

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The concept of mastery over Super Saiyan entailed ameliorating the the strain it has on a person's Ki reserves. Using it as a casual light source was never referred to as a benefit or trait of it if I recall correctly. Unless his power was constantly fluctuating with the aura indicating his continual increase and decrease in power then I think he was at a consistent level of max power.
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EMIYA Jun 16 2016, 10:18 PM Post #95
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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If Cell were already superior to Gohan, then I just don't see how Gohan could put up any resistance with less than half the power he had previously, and without any implication I can see that Cell was holding back. He'd be about 2.5 x weaker than him at that point.


I believe that's one of the major problems people have. It's true Gohan was at about half his power but this was before he got into his duel. Once the fight starts though, Gohan's confidence and willpower has returned and he's trying to give it everything he has. For Gohan, he's mentally telling himself that he's going all out while subconsciously he's holding back because he fears damaging the planet.

We don't know what this percentage is. He could've been holding back 10% or 20%. We just know that he's using more than 50% and less than 100% but we also know mentally he's telling himself he's going all out. I mean in most cases, 10% difference is still notable. Even if Gohan was only using 80-90% of his full power, that's still enough to let Cell have a notable advantage while simultaneously lasting just long enough so that Cell doesn't blow him off his feet.

I'd say its similar to Goku vs Vegeta, Goku was losing the beam duel, but still had enough strength to keep the blast from instantly coming down on him. I'm sure the general consensus is that Cell and Gohan are rivals to each other. Gohan has powered himself up, his confidence has returned but because of his subconscious he can't go fully all out. He's straining himself and he's just barely keeping Cell from annihilating him instantly.

Quote:
 
*Base Vegeta managed to knock the unaware Cell off his game with a nothing-special-blast, and he's got to be at least fifty-times weaker than Cell, so I don't see any reason Cell couldn't severely damage the compromised Gohan at only 1.3 x weaker.


Some theorize that this is after Vegeta powered down. For example we never actually see him revert to base, even when he's knocked down by Cell, he still remains as a Super Saiyan. Plus when we see him after he fires his blast, he's panting heavily. It would make sense that Vegeta would throw out a strong attack as an SSJ (which let's be honest, did nothing more than distract Cell) and power down because he's used too much energy.

Otherwise, we'd have to assume that Vegeta not only bothered to power down to base, he decided to attack in base. Not really a smart Vegeta moment.
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Saberoph Jun 17 2016, 12:02 AM Post #96
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 In a nutshell this is what I believe...

That ASSJ Gohan at the Cell Games wasn't taking Cell seriously when he saved Vegeta and he paid for his arrogance. I also believe the gap between Gohan and Cell is very small that it's a single percentage. I also believe Gohan was using about 90% of his power in "the battle of the Kamehameha's" and that he unleashed the 10% when he had that second to breathe.

Also, I do believe when Gohan fought Dabra he was running at about 90-95% of his power, and add in being so rusty...that's why he didn't have an advantage. However, I also believe Gohan was about equal to Cell Games Goku, which explains Goku and Vegeta's comments about Dabra and comparing him to Cell.

I think the evidence in favor for Dabra>Super Perfect Cell is very weak and hinges on one single line in a book that's contradicted by another line and by the Manga too.
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KidBuu55 Jun 17 2016, 12:42 AM Post #97
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Saberoph
Jun 17 2016, 12:02 AM
In a nutshell this is what I believe...

That ASSJ Gohan at the Cell Games wasn't taking Cell seriously when he saved Vegeta and he paid for his arrogance. I also believe the gap between Gohan and Cell is very small that it's a single percentage. I also believe Gohan was using about 90% of his power in "the battle of the Kamehameha's" and that he unleashed the 10% when he had that second to breathe.

Also, I do believe when Gohan fought Dabra he was running at about 90-95% of his power, and add in being so rusty...that's why he didn't have an advantage. However, I also believe Gohan was about equal to Cell Games Goku, which explains Goku and Vegeta's comments about Dabra and comparing him to Cell.

I think the evidence in favor for Dabra>Super Perfect Cell is very weak and hinges on one single line in a book that's contradicted by another line and by the Manga too.
Well, no statement supports Dabura is as weak as Perfect Cell (especially considering Goku said he's STRONGER) and a STRONGER SSJ Gohan wasn't even on par with Perfect Cell, it's IMPOSSIBLE to consolidate that.

Combine that with Gohan's statements regarding his attacks on Buu, and Kaioshin's comments on Gohan's power AND the statements in the guidebook - you have overwhelming evidenceof Gohan being SSJ2. To ignore all of this just means you're being internationally obtuse about the situation.
Edited by KidBuu55, Jun 17 2016, 12:44 AM.
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Saberoph Jun 17 2016, 12:46 AM Post #98
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 Hey you're ignoring the Diaz saying Gohan never used ASSJ after the Budokai, so you have no room to talk. I have yet to see you address being called out on that.
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Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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KidBuu55 Jun 17 2016, 12:50 AM Post #99
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Saberoph
Jun 17 2016, 12:46 AM
Hey you're ignoring the Diaz saying Gohan never used ASSJ after the Budokai, so you have no room to talk. I have yet to see you address being called out on that.

It doesn't say that at all. Daizenshuu 2 just states he uses it at the time 28th Budokai, that's all.

Daubra's bio specifically states he fights SSJ2 Gohan. All of this is irrelevant though, considering the other statements I provided to you.
Edited by KidBuu55, Jun 17 2016, 12:51 AM.
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Saberoph Jun 17 2016, 12:55 AM Post #100
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 You mean intentionally taking quotes out of context, taking a guidebook that was only approved by Toriyama and not written by him(Someone who admits to making stuff up as he goes along, and even admits to forgetting key specific characters and contradicts himself), and flat out ignoring facts and feats stated in the original source material the Manga it's self?

You really need to reconsider the definition of the word proof.

Show me a scan of Gohan being drawn as an ASSJ against Dabra...then you can talk about proof.
Edited by Saberoph, Jun 17 2016, 01:25 AM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
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* Yu Narukami Jun 17 2016, 12:57 AM Post #101
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Izanagi!

 Didn't one of the other Daiz claim that Gohan was a SSJ when fighting Dabra?
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EMIYA Jun 17 2016, 01:36 AM Post #102
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"I am the bone of my sword."
Nagito Komaeda
Jun 17 2016, 12:57 AM
Didn't one of the other Daiz claim that Gohan was a SSJ when fighting Dabra?
I'm not sure about that. Two of the Daizenshuu have contradicting points, they being #2 and #6 I believe.

One claims Gohan used SSj2 while the other one claims Gohan never used it past the Tenkaichi Budokai. Not that it matters because as you know, we've established the point that even if Gohan did use SSJ2, he's so amazingly weak compared to his kid self and Dabura is barely holding the edge, that it still wouldn't make Dabura come anywhere close to Zenkai Perfect Cell.
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KidBuu55 Jun 17 2016, 02:55 AM Post #103
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EMIYA
Jun 17 2016, 01:36 AM
Nagito Komaeda
Jun 17 2016, 12:57 AM
Didn't one of the other Daiz claim that Gohan was a SSJ when fighting Dabra?
I'm not sure about that. Two of the Daizenshuu have contradicting points, they being #2 and #6 I believe.

One claims Gohan used SSj2 while the other one claims Gohan never used it past the Tenkaichi Budokai. Not that it matters because as you know, we've established the point that even if Gohan did use SSJ2, he's so amazingly weak compared to his kid self and Dabura is barely holding the edge, that it still wouldn't make Dabura come anywhere close to Zenkai Perfect Cell.
No, they all state that he was SSJ2, however Daizenshuu 2 only states that SSJ2 (specifically in Gohan transformation Bio) was used at the TB and says nothing beyond that.
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+ Pyrus Jun 17 2016, 02:57 AM Post #104
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 There is an excerpt that mentions "Super Saiyan Gohan" fighting Dabura, but it's impossible to know if it was specifically Super Saiyan 1 or Super Saiyan as a broad term since even in the manga, "Super Saiyan" is used to described "Super Saiyan 2" until Goku names the forms.
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EMIYA Jun 17 2016, 03:09 AM Post #105
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"I am the bone of my sword."
Pyrus
Jun 17 2016, 02:57 AM
There is an excerpt that mentions "Super Saiyan Gohan" fighting Dabura, but it's impossible to know if it was specifically Super Saiyan 1 or Super Saiyan as a broad term since even in the manga, "Super Saiyan" is used to described "Super Saiyan 2" until Goku names the forms.
If this is from one of the Daizenshuu's, wouldn't that more than likely describe regular Super Saiyan.

Assuming you are talking about the Daiz. while its true that the Super Saiyan 2 form wasn't until Goku named it, by now that's been established. So when the Daiz. is being written, the authors should know now that that forms called Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 and name the accordingly right?
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