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- Is There A Way to Justify Dabra>Super Perfect Cell?
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| Is There A Way to Justify Dabra>Super Perfect Cell? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 13 2016, 11:33 PM (5,906 Views) | |
| KidBuu55 | Jun 16 2016, 01:59 PM Post #76 |
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Again, Gohan was never at full power during his fight with Cell, except for when he kills him. So yes, Gohan is still stronger than Cell (and we see as such) Saying that because Cell injured him while he was off guard means he rivals him, is like sayong Sorbet's ring rivals Goku's power. The daizenshuu says Dabura fought SSJ2 Gohan, Gohan is basically having a rematch of SPC while he's out of shape, that's the only reason the fight is as close as it was. |
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| lazerbem | Jun 16 2016, 03:28 PM Post #77 |
 
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If Cell was so weak, why did Gohan fail to outrace his blast? You'll notice he was trying to grab Vegeta and fly off, not take it head on. |
 Crazy cat cults in the woods | |
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| EMIYA | Jun 16 2016, 03:56 PM Post #78 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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The Daizenshuu also says that Gohan never used SSJ2 past the Tenkaichi Budokai. Which the manga kind of proves when Gohan clearly never used SSJ2 in his fight against Dabura. but hey, we've already established that even if Gohan was using the form, Dabura is doing jack nothing against him. He's failing to do anything substantial to this massively weaker, less enraged Gohan. Even Babidi has called him out on it. Dabura tries to talk a big game and couldn't back himself up at all. And when Gohan finally manages to kill him, not only does he need to be at full power, he needs Cell to be distracted. He needs so many things on his side to give him the edge. But you clearly want to ignore this. So yes, I'd say when Cell cuts off half of Gohan's ki, breaks his arm, breaks his spirit, forces Gohan to admit he underestimated him, completely decimates Gohan during the entire duel until the very end, needs Gohan to use his absolute full power leaving the kid completely exhausted and fainted at the end, needs to be distracted by Vegeta at the same time and according to the Daizenshuu, Gohan needed to use Energy from Goku as well and add in potential rage boosts. Then yes, I'd say Cell's coming pretty damn close to Gohan.
Why would he even take so much damage in the first place. Sounds to me like Gohan at best should have been rattled a bit. And even if he did take that much damage, once Goku gives his pep talk and Gohan decides to really fight back, Cell should've gone. "Holy s***! Why is he so much stronger!?" Before being decimated nonchalantly. Gohan shouldn't have to worry about jack my right? |
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| + Pyrus | Jun 16 2016, 04:37 PM Post #79 |
 
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Gohan had to have at least been prepared to tank that generic ki blast. He knew it was heading Vegeta's way. It says more about Cell's strength that Gohan lost a chunk of his power. |
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| EMIYA | Jun 16 2016, 05:40 PM Post #80 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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In fact, why would Toriyama even bother making Cell stronger in the first place? Sounds like he could have just as easily had Gohan take an attack from Cell by protecting Vegeta, kind of like how Budokai 1 played it out. Then just have Goku coax Gohan into finally unleashing his full power, to let him realize the damage isn't all that and defeat Cell. In fact, it seems stupid to even bring Cell back at this point if Gohan was still vastly stronger. Gohan has proven his superiority. Now he can learn to accept his flaws and the risks the fight with Cell had. Becoming ultimately a better person. Instead, Cell randomly comes back when all the build up to his power is somehow for naught. Kind of like how some people think regular SSJ Gogeta could defeat Boohan which kind of makes the whole, stronger form of fusion, and potential rivalry boost seem....pointless. Why bother making Potara so much stronger if the dance is more than good enough? Why not just have the Potara be instant fusion instead of adding in all this unnecessary information to make it stronger when it doesn't even matter? |
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| KidBuu55 | Jun 16 2016, 05:44 PM Post #81 |
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Gohan was off guard, that's all there is too it. Kid Gohan is stronger than Cell, as proved by his ability to beat Cell's beam back Daizeshuu states with certainty that Dabura fought SSJ2 Gohan. Kaioshin states Gohan's power while fight Dabura was stronger than his SSJ2 at the TB Gohan is stated to give Buu his 'best' blast (to which he though would be enough to stop Buu at the tme) while Vegeta felt he was a little stronger than the Fat Buu at that same period. Do you believe SSJ Gohan is roughly equal to SSJ2 Vegeta? Everything you have posted really isn't supported, I'm just going by what is stated directly. So Gohan SSJ2 50% is weaker than Cell (but enough to stalemate his KHM) but 100% Gohan is stronger. So technically Daubra and Teen Gohan can fit in that gap anywhere. |
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| KidBuu55 | Jun 16 2016, 05:47 PM Post #82 |
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Toriyama actually planned on have Gogeta fight Buu, but because the movie debuted him first, he came up with the Portara earrings. - so yeah, Gogeta would have easily been on par with Evil Buu - Gohan absorbed if they did the fusion dance. But that's another conversation, let's keep it there. |
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| EMIYA | Jun 16 2016, 05:55 PM Post #83 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Yeah, so was Goku when Freeza smashed into his Kamehameha, juked him and smashed him into Namek's ocean. Funny enough Goku didn't get his bones smashed, half his ki docked and lose his spirit. Gohan wasn't even off guard, he fully knew the attack was coming and thought he could handle it. Instead he completely underestimated Cell's power and got screwed because of it. The same guy who could tank punches from Full powered Perfect Cell and nonchalantly blow back his strongest Kamehameha with an even stronger one, can't take one generic chi blast meant for Vegeta?
The Daizenshuu also states Gohan never used SSj2 past the Budokai. You can't have both.
Gohan being stronger isn't a problem, Gohan being vastly stronger when all evidence points against it though, is.
Hahaha, bulls***.
Hahaha, no it wasn't. Once again, Gohan never stalemated s***, be it the manga or the anime. Thanks again for lying.
You bring me a legitimate quote from Toriyama from a respectable site saying this and we'll see. I'll gladly wait until you do |
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| + Sandy Shore | Jun 16 2016, 07:02 PM Post #84 |
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That is to say, Toriyama didn't come up with Vegetto because he decided that Gogeta wasn't strong enough, but purely because a fusion of Goku and Vegeta via the dance had already been used by Toei. I guess this snippet isn't as common knowledge as I thought it to be. To say nothing of the Dabura vs Cell debate, I also think it makes more sense for SSJ2 Gohan to be stronger than SSJ2 Cell. Surely you know what he's getting at, and are just being difficult for the sake of being difficult? Despite having his power cut in half, Gohan is holding ground against Cell's blast. If he were twice as weak as Cell, or more, then he shouldn't have even blocked it for a second, let alone be able to have the longest beam-clash in the series. How I'd like to put it in numbers: Perfect Cell: 2 Super Perfect Cell: 4 SSJ2 Gohan: 5.4 Weakened Gohan: 2.7 This means that the power difference that allows the weaker Cell to severely damage a Gohan that threw himself unguarded in-front of a blast to save Vegeta at the very last moment, is about the same difference in power that allows Gohan to put up resistance against the now stronger Cell's blast. If someone were to believe that Gohan was SSJ2, then he and Dabura could be around the 4 - 4.5 mark on my little scale, I suppose. Again, I think you know what he was getting at. He's got it wrong, but Kaioshin did state something similar: Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5 Context: Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being so tough Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…” - implying that Gohan's full power is even stronger than his Super Saiyan 2 displayed at the tournament. Instead of laughing, you probably could have corrected him. Apologies if you really had no idea as to some of the stuff that he was mentioning, right or wrong, but it seems to me that you were being willfully ignorant so as to belittle. |
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| + Clearin | Jun 16 2016, 07:07 PM Post #85 |
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Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.” Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…” Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.” There was this, which implies that at some point after Kibito dying, Gohan displayed greater power than when he turned SSj2 at the tournament. |
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| * Yu Narukami | Jun 16 2016, 07:17 PM Post #86 |
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Izanagi!
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Cell was toying around with Gohan. He probably wouldn't get the chance to fight an opponent as strong as he was in decades, so that's why he was taunting Gohan and stretching out the struggle. Cell could've ended it at any moment if he'd wanted to. Gohan needed to reach inside himself and tap into the immense power he was sub-consciously suppressing and needed a distraction from Vegeta to ensure that it would actually overpower Cell's. |
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| EMIYA | Jun 16 2016, 07:29 PM Post #87 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Gohan never does put up any resistance or hold it back though. It's not like in the anime where Gohan is able to withstand the attack for several minutes, though at the same time he's also powering up through that fight. The manga, the fight only last 12 pages I believe, it's not even a full 18 page chapter that we usually see in later mangas. Once the beams clashed, instantly Gohan is stated to being pushed back, he's struggling to survive while Cell is showing any of the strain. Even if Gohan was actually holding back the attack, the sheer difference in effort the two were showing still stands. So after a, I don't know....5 page battle I suppose, Cell gets distracted and Gohan finishes him off and even that's played a bit differently here in the manga than the anime. In the anime, Cell's blast is slowly overpowered where he's slowly obliterated, giving you the idea that Gohan's attack truly is stronger. In the manga, Gohan almost seems to detonate the entire thing on Cell and it's so sudden that Cell doesn't have time to react. You have Gohan releasing his attack, that one panel of Cell with his head kind of turned, shocked. Then next page, Cell's being blown off his feet. It seems to almost help indicate the kind of distraction Cell had, especially considering that Vegeta's attack in the manga, just kind of, budges Cell. But at this point Cell's focus is completely away from Gohan and by the time it returns, Gohan's already got the edge on him. Does this mean Cell could've countered Gohan had he been focused? Eh, hard to say. Some say that was naturally weaker and needed that distraction to overpower Cell. It doesn't help if you think Gohan got a rage boost as well. Some say Gohan was so pressured at the point that he needed a moment for Cell to get off his back and counter. Either way the distraction had to have been needed for something. Otherwise I feel Gohan should naturally just have released his power and overpowered Cell. Overall it's a very short fight. I don't know if its the shortest beam duel, but its definitely not long. Vegeta vs Goku might have been longer in terms of when the beams collide and up until Goku blasts Vegeta away. But in the end, it's short, almost anti-climactic in a sense.
I wouldn't be surprised if Cell was still rather salty. Gohan had humiliated him and even knocked his own "perfection" out of him. Now he has the edge, now he's turned the tides and is holding the advantage. I'd be shocked if Cell's massive ego didn't want a bit of payback and purposely wanted Gohan to suffer. Edited by EMIYA, Jun 16 2016, 07:33 PM.
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| Darker | Jun 16 2016, 07:34 PM Post #88 |
The Lord of the Dark
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And that was a weak blast too lol |
 Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?! Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power. | |
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| EMIYA | Jun 16 2016, 07:55 PM Post #89 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Cell even states in the official "English" version of the manga that he was "Fooling around." Specifically he states "Enough fooling around, I've let this go on too long" Now I admit, I'm hesitant on using the English version just because its difficult to know how faithful the translation is. For example in the English Version, Gohan states he lost half his ki, while the original states he had less. The latter may have meant it in a sense that he barely had even 50% of his ki left. But it's that subtle difference that can mean a lot in the end. However if what Cell said above is true in the original, than not only did he do that much damage to Gohan, he did while he was screwing around. Again, not exactly helping Gohan's case of superiority. |
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| + Sandy Shore | Jun 16 2016, 08:30 PM Post #90 |
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I wouldn't say he was toying with him. He's amused that Gohan has accepted defeat after supposedly losing half of his power, accepts that the end isn't going to be some great climax, and is actually surprised when he starts charging his own Kamehameha. When Gohan does fire, he's not deterred by what he would see as futile resistance, but I really don't see anything suggest he's holding back his own power to draw anything out, as your post would imply. He's certainly not exerting himself in the same way the less-than-half-strength-Gohan is, but he's not holding back, and was willing to blast them all away with no fight at all. Also, wasn't pre-power-loss-Gohan more than willing to fight SSJ2 Cell upon his return? And after taking the blast to save Vegeta, he says that Cell's power had gone up "more than he thought", not more than his own. Cell's power increase has been amply noted, but it's never once stated to have surpassed Gohan's - Gohan's, however, is stated to have dropped considerably. Yet, he's still so strong that Cell can't instantly overpower his Kamehameha. EMIYA: yeah, you're right, it is a short beam-clash. I'm sure my perception was swayed by the anime. Edited by Sandy Shore, Jun 16 2016, 08:33 PM.
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