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- Is There A Way to Justify Dabra>Super Perfect Cell?
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| Is There A Way to Justify Dabra>Super Perfect Cell? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 13 2016, 11:33 PM (5,907 Views) | |
| + Pyrus | Jun 16 2016, 12:08 AM Post #61 |
 
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Yes, Gohan was weaker. I wasn't denying that. It's plainly said more than once. What I was saying was that a weaker Gohan was inferior to post-zenkai Cell, and needed not only to stop subconsciously holding back, but a distraction as well in order to overwhelm him. That's pretty far from half-power Gohan beating Cell. |
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| Thiln | Jun 16 2016, 12:15 AM Post #62 |
 
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I never understood the reason for Gohan's suggestion of having lost half of his power. Goku had all but one of his limbs broken by King Piccolo, who accomplished that by just blowing rocks at him by the way, and yet he was still powerful enough to propel himself using the momentum of a Ki blast and perforate through KP's chest with no power loss implied. Now applicability of that power could be argued. Having access to only one hand for a technique that commonly requires two does seem like it would be detrimental. How much weaker Gohan got exactly is unknown. I would say his power decreased no more than 25% at worst, but that's only my opinion. By the way, it seems like no one has addressed the elephant in the room that is the Kiri reading device; neither Babidi or Dabura were quivering in their boots when seeing SSJ Goku's estimated Kiri amount. They were initially shocked at the unexpected amount and noted to themselves that Yakon couldn't win, but otherwise they didn't seem all too concerned. Dabura himself was raring to take on all three Saiyans plus Kaioshin at the same time. |
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| EMIYA | Jun 16 2016, 12:21 AM Post #63 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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Gohan more than likely lost that much power but it wasn't just damage. Toriyama remarks that there are 3 aspects of Ki, Genki, Shouki and Yuuki. Gohan may have lost 10-15% of his Genki (Energy) which would be devastating enough. Taking this much damage already both energy wise and physically, Gohan's Yuuki and Shouki (Bravery and True Character) also takes a plummet. A combination of all of this just lead to Gohan taking a huge drop in power. Once Goku gives his pep talk, Gohan's energy naturally rises as his confidence rises, more ready to take on Cell. By the time Gohan confronts Cell, he's ready to fight. by his own mental state, he believes he's using everything he has. Unfortunately some percentage of him is holding back subconsciously in fear of hurting the lanet. And unfortunately for him, that percentage was more than enough for Cell to manhandle him during the duel. |
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| + Pyrus | Jun 16 2016, 12:29 AM Post #64 |
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I think it makes sense for Gohan to have lost a bit of ki from Cell's attack. He was off-guard to an extent, after all. The rest of that drop was doubt taking over his mind, though. Once he realized he couldn't be a little b*** without daddy's help, he got back on the beaten path and started to hold his own a bit more. It still took a distraction from Vegeta, but nevertheless. |
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| + Ryebrid | Jun 16 2016, 12:41 AM Post #65 |
 
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My initial response is that Goku wasn't at full power when transformed. Which makes sense when you consider Vegeta didn't even flinch, yet shat himself at the sight of his SSJ2 Burst. Second, Dabura and Babidi are idiots and don't know jack about power levels. Third, kiri is an unreliable method of measurement. |
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| + Pyrus | Jun 16 2016, 12:51 AM Post #66 |
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I always figured Goku wasn't blasting at full throttle, but was at least more than halfway there. |
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| + Clearin | Jun 16 2016, 01:26 AM Post #67 |
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Goku only used Super Saiyan for a light source. Considering even base Goku was strong enough to give Yakkon a good fight it wouldn't make much sense to power up much further given a Saiyans nature for wanting a good battle. |
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| Thiln | Jun 16 2016, 01:29 AM Post #68 |
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He's at only partial power yet an aura is being projected? Pyrus, weren't you the one who established that Super Saiyan auras are an indication of the Saiyan using full power? They appear to manifest only when the person in question is using serious power. If you can cite a precedent where an aura appeared while the Saiyan was expressly restrained then please do so. I don't recall Vegeta expressing the same level of shock as Kaioshin when Goku emitted that SSJ2 burst. In fact, he seemed relatively calm about it with only a mental note given about how Goku had surpassed Super Saiyan as well. Questionable competency or not, Babidi did outright admit that Yakon stood no chance against SSJ Goku when reading the estimate. It seems unlikely that he would have Yakon's Kiri reading while lacking the numerical power estimate of his right hand man. If SSJ Goku was superior to Dabura then it should have been major cause for alarm. Dabura didn't appear all too concerned, though. |
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| * Yu Narukami | Jun 16 2016, 01:35 AM Post #69 |
Izanagi!
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Wasn't there a statement that 200/300 Kiri was enough to destroy a planet? Regardless, Dabra was confident about going back out and defeating Gohan, Goku and Vegeta after his poor performance against Gohan the first time. Even when he was faced with what was pretty much an impossible situation, he was still arrogant enough to believe he could win (or he was trying to fool Babidi so he wouldn't kill him in anger). |
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| + Pyrus | Jun 16 2016, 01:44 AM Post #70 |
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That's why I said he was using more than half power, which blows back to Goku showing off his power on the Lookout to Korin. |
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| Thiln | Jun 16 2016, 02:15 AM Post #71 |
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I'm looking over the scene where Goku powers up for Karin and the aura was only momentarily visible for a panel. Immediately after the intense power up it disappears. There's a contrast amongst it and Goku's encounter with Yakon because the latter portrayed Goku with a consistently transparent aura enshrouding him all throughout. |
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| + Ryebrid | Jun 16 2016, 03:23 AM Post #72 |
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I exaggerated his reaction, but he clearly had internal anger and frustration, which he displayed later on. This is the instance that drove him to Majin after all. Yes, but it seems Dabura was a recent addition to his minions. It's plausible he didn't feel the need to gauge him considering how much stronger he is than everyone else in practice. Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P5.1-3 Kaioshin: “At any rate, it was a big miscalculation that Dabra is here. A combo of Babidi and Dabra…” Vegeta: “Are you trying to say that our chances of victory have fallen considerably?” Kaioshin: “…” Babidi was concerned though. If he had an accurate reading of Dabura's kiri level, he wouldn't be distressed and second guessing him. Dabura's confidence seems to be born out of his own ignorance and ego, as he hails himself the King. Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P12.1-2 Context: Babidi is concerned now that Goku and co. have defeated even Yakon. Dabra: “…Alright then, I know what to do…I shall take away your anxiety, Lord Babidi…I shall personally go to Stage 3. Then in the blink of an eye I shall fill Majin Boo’s ball with their energy, you’ll see.” Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P12.3-4 Context: after Dabra says he’ll fight on Stage 3 Babidi: “Da-Dabra…if yo-you get done in, I’ll be finished…Do you have a chance of winning?...” Dabra: “A chance of winning?...Fuffuffuh…I’m Dabra, king of the Demon Realm…There doesn’t exist anyone in the entire world who exceeds my power…” And clearly neither of them can sense ki. Edited by Ryebrid, Jun 16 2016, 03:24 AM.
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| Thiln | Jun 16 2016, 04:20 AM Post #73 |
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I'm not really sure if anger is the appropriate term in describing Vegeta's reaction. Subtle frustration and weariness about the implications of all his toiling being matched by Goku, yes, but anger? It still sounds a bit like exaggeration. Regarding Dabura and Babidi - we don't know specifically when Dabura had fallen under Babidi's control relative to Pui Pui and Yakon. If we're going to postulate how Babidi's arrogance deterred him from measuring Dabura's strength then wouldn't it also be equally reasonable to assume that his level would have been estimated after showing misgivings about the Saiyans' strength? Of course, we don't know what Babidi's personal course of action would have been before Dabura volunteered to go himself. He was hesitant about letting Dabura go in the first place. I doubt Yakon was the extent of his faction's resource strength before Dabura. Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P2.5-6 Babidi: "Thr... 3,000 kiri...!! H-how does an Earthling have 3,000 kiri of energy...?!! Dabra: “3,000 kiri…That’s strange…There shouldn’t be any human race like that.” Dabura's reference to the human species and his presumptions about their numerically estimated strength seem to indicate that he must have some insight into Kiri measuring for such boundaries of limitation of their Kiri reading to exist. Edited by Thiln, Jun 16 2016, 04:21 AM.
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| KidBuu55 | Jun 16 2016, 05:17 AM Post #74 |
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You're arguing in circles and you're still wrong: Gohan lost power - he states it, Piccolo confirms it and Goku says it's ok. Gohan says it's HALF. Gohan gets into a beam struggle with Cell, and starts to lose, while at HALF power. Goku encourages Gohan to go all out, to which he easily overpowers Cell. So we know: Gohan SSJ2 50% =/= Cell Gohan SSJ2 100% > Cell Dabura is stated to be ON PAR or greater than Cell. Considering Cell Games Gohan was WEAKER than Perfect Cell, and Teen Gohan is weaker still, it make ZERO sense that Goku is speaking of basic Perfect Cell. Also, there is the issue that Gohan is said to be putting out MORE power with his fight with Dabura than he did at the TB (While he was SSJ2) |
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| EMIYA | Jun 16 2016, 06:42 AM Post #75 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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You're saying Gohan can still win at 50% power...he can't. That's why he gives up in the first place. That's why even after getting his confidence returned and attempting to fight against Cell, he is still stated to be weaker by Piccolo. Goku never says that Gohan can win at 50% of his power. He's trying to give him confidence to fight back, knowing he has that capability. He knows that despite the damage Gohan has taken, he can still reach into his full power and unleash everything. It's already well established that Gohan, not just his 50% power, but the level he was using in the beam duel, once his confidence was raised, one his Yukki and Shouki were up and was mentally trying to give everything he had, was still being manhandled nonchalantly by Cell. Then once Gohan actually ends up giving everything he has, assuming he wasn't rage as well, its own a distracted Cell. It's proven that Cell is more than a threat for Gohan at this point. His attacks are doing massive amounts of damage, he's forced Gohan to admit he screwed up and underestimated him. He's utterly toying with Gohan during their fight and Gohan needs everything to finally pull off the win while the guy is distracted. That isn't something a guy only rivaling 50% Gohan can or would do. And considering you like to use more stuff from the Daiz, it's stated that Gohan was also burrowing power from Goku. Literally, the kid had to do everything but his sale his soul to beat Cell. You're really going to tell me Cell isn't rivaling SSj2 Kid Gohan? And then going to tell me that Dabura, a guy who barely held the advantage (if you can even call it that) over the massively weaker, less enraged Boo Arc Gohan is stronger? Plus, as everyone has said. Even if Gohan was only using 50% during the beam duel what does it matter? Cell was kicking his a*** and laughing the whole time and once Gohan does unleash his full power, Cell is distracted. So its not like Gohan managed to overpower Cell with overwhelming superior power. He caught him off guard. That's not helping Gohan's case at all here. In fact, the entire battle between the two almost entirely supports Cell's superiority. Edited by EMIYA, Jun 16 2016, 06:46 AM.
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