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The Bleach Team vs Dragon Ball/Z/GT/Super
Topic Started: May 15 2016, 09:48 PM (2,754 Views)
Venom 2009
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How far would Everyone and Everything in the Bleach Franchise as One Big Team make it in Dragon Ball, Z, GT, and Super?
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Mihawk
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Calcs and scaling are BS

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PocketGod
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Edgar Allan Bro
May 16 2016, 11:39 PM
Calcs and scaling are BS
So then you go with Piccolo (post-Raditz) >>> Nappa

.-.
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Mihawk
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wut?

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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

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Using only in-universe explanations, he doesn't even attempt it because he can't. He was pushed into a corner multiple times and never used "real" reality warping. Most likely because he was limited by Reaitsu. I mean you just can't ignore Aizen's statement. It wraps around the entire series and makes you resort to PIS explanations way less.


When? Where? How? Gremmy already thought he was above Kenpachi to begin with, he thought he was the strongest guy there was. Literally his first attack is to shoot lava at him, not manipulate his body, not turn his bones into something they weren't, not stand there and just go...I imagine you to be dead. He just chucks physical attacks at him and that's pretty much all he did.

If he actually tried to manipulate Kenpachi has he's done before and found out he couldn't that would be one thing. But to claim utter superiority over him and then resort to some basic physical attacks is absurd. So yes, that's pretty much the definition of PIS. Gremmy has the ability to manipulate people and instead of manipulating Kenpachi, he decided to do something entirely different. Call it arrogance but nothing actually says Gremmy couldn't manipulate Kenpachi if he imagined it.

Literally, Gremmy could just create something like The Vanishing Point, make Kenpachi literally forget what he was doing and blindside him with an attack. If none of Gremmy's attacks work, that's one thing. If his imagination doesn't effect him, fine. But if you aren't going to express that point, there's no reason for me to imagine this isn't straight up PIS.
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I'm pretty sure Gremmy did create life during their battle. He made a clone of himself and that was the reason he even explained the power in the first place. The question is whether he can imagine something as strong as Kenpachi. And by as strong it's obviously equivalent to anything on the level of that Reiatsu. The gap between him and the girl was probably massive, so he could play around and use whatever level of warping he wanted on her. Author's put these limits for a reason. Kubo isn't an award winning writer, but he does pay specific attention to abilities and powers.


Why does he have to imagine something? Why can' the just effect Kenpachi directly? Until this point is actually addressed, it's PIS. There are so many things Gremmy could've done, not only beyond physical attacks, but things don't even effect Kenpachi directly. Really, what stops the guy from making his existence from being completely unknown to Kenpachi? Sure Kenpachi might use the whole instincts thing. That's the problem here, Gremmy never once attempts to utilize his true abilities and freaks out over Kenpachi doing all this physical stuff.

And I'm going to stick with that PIS business until it is explained properly.

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None of Gremmy's creations were something outside of the power that Kenpachi couldn't deal with. The issue is creating a weapon that Kenpachi can't deal with. Direct reality warping onto a person is implied to be limited by the Reaitsu difference.


Stated where?

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Aizen most likely did face Respira.


You'll have to back that up with a quote somewhere.

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Which also reminds me of the fact that Aizen didn't believe he could keep Yamamato under illusion despite him seeing his Shikai and had to keep a specific counter for his ability.


I don't believe he actually says that. Give me the quote if I'm wrong, but I believe Aizen was more concerned with the power Yamamoto had, not that his illusions wouldn't work. Yamamoto's shikai was incredibly powerful, with highly destructive capabilities and if Aizen knows anything about his Bankai, it would stand that Aizen would want to try to keep him in a weakened state.
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Tinny
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PocketGod
May 16 2016, 11:35 PM
Tinny
May 16 2016, 11:29 PM
PocketGod
May 16 2016, 11:22 PM
Anyway just go look at the character Profiles over at http://vsbattles.wikia.com/
You'll see that the Bleach characters are vastly inferior in every stat besides Hax when compared to even DBZ characters.

Here's the profiles for bleach -> http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Bleach
Here's the profiles for DBZ -> http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball
Vs battles thinks Squall is galaxy level and thought Celestia was solar system level. I don't trust anything from them without evidence.
All the stats, calculations, feats and scaling are all right there. I don't really know what you want then exactly. Also if you don't know Bleach why are you even arguing on this thread exactly? :V
Because I saw people making basic mistakes in debating. What do I have to have an agenda? I find that tends to cloud ones judgement. Also calculations are generally untrustworthy as a whole and are in fact against the rules here.

And once again, these people think Squall from ff8 is galaxy level.
SQUALL. GALAXY LEVEL. Tell me that isn't the most ridiculous thing you've heard.
Edited by Tinny, May 16 2016, 11:53 PM.
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Mihawk
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When? Where? How? Gremmy already thought he was above Kenpachi to begin with, he thought he was the strongest guy there was. Literally his first attack is to shoot lava at him, not manipulate his body, not turn his bones into something they weren't, not stand there and just go...I imagine you to be dead. He just chucks physical attacks at him and that's pretty much all he did.

Once again, as I said using only in universe explanations. PIS is an out of universe explanation for someone who should be smarter than everyone on this forum combined. His not using reality warping on Kenpachi is a testament to the fact that he can't do it more than anything else. If he could do it it'd break a very important rule in the series of the higher Reaitsu fighter winning most battles. Once again there's no way around the rule and it explains the fight better than your insistence on PIS which should only be a last resort rather than the primary option.

Gremmy didn't actually say he thought he was stronger. Provide the quote please. He just said the shiginami below imagine you can win. And also says "I'll try to kill you". He also says he won't one finger, but that's more explaining his power than a power boast. Also if you read the fight in the entire context, it seems like he never thought he could win when he says "I wanted to win" (once again making him a massive idiot if he could actually reality warp directly against someone stronger than him).

The lower Reiatsu rule is a perfectly fine explanation to everything you posted. He could only post out things that would not let him defeat someone stronger than him. Whatever showings he had as a reality warper were fairly meager and clearly lower than showing by Ichigo and Aizen in their higher-than-Gremmy's Reiatsu battle.

Directly using reality warping having its limits is heavily backed up the fact that he couldn't use it on himself to the extent needed to win the battle.

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Stated where?

I clearly said implied and that was the Reaitsu difference rule I've mentioned multiple times.

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You'll have to back that up with a quote somewhere.

That's not how it works. I'm giving what the most likely scenario is based on the situation. I'm not saying it's definitive just that my side is more likely. If you disagree you should back that up with quote.

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I don't believe he actually says that. Give me the quote if I'm wrong, but I believe Aizen was more concerned with the power Yamamoto had, not that his illusions wouldn't work. Yamamoto's shikai was incredibly powerful, with highly destructive capabilities and if Aizen knows anything about his Bankai, it would stand that Aizen would want to try to keep him in a weakened state.

He doesn't literally say that, but he just abused it on the other captains, there's no reason he couldn't protect himself from it again using the illusion. It's obvious the destructive force overrides the "hax" in this case along with the two other cases above.

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+ Steve
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

Edgar Allan Bro
May 16 2016, 11:22 PM
Aizen most likely did face Respira. Barragan was a very prideful King before fighting Aizen. There's no way he'd bow down to anyone if they didn't defeat him by sheer force. Beating someone by hiding behind an illusion doesn't give the impression of defeating them through power. He says Aizen was "stronger" - hardly gives the impression of an illusion battle. Not to mention Aizen was mentioned to be the war potential of overwhelming Reiatsu recently.

Which also reminds me of the fact that Aizen didn't believe he could keep Yamamato under illusion despite him seeing his Shikai and had to keep a specific counter for his ability.
But it would be evident how powerful he was just from his energy, he had monstrously high spiritual energy and I'm pretty sure he defeated some other characters(could have been filler) so Barragan would have known what he was all about.

Aizen as he is now seems to have not lost much power from his Monster form, perhaps even gained some. In a fully unsealed state he'd probably be a threat to Juha, due to the unique nature of his body and energy. He's not simply strong he's above most beings in their universe.

Wasn't that something along the lines of Yama's experience though? He said he knew when he'd been stabbed by a real sword. Unohana was also capable of noticing some weirdness while under the illusion.
In a base state too.
She was the previous Kenpachi but there's no way she'd be radiating enough energy to combat Aizen's Shikai, we'd have known how powerful she is way back if so. The energy Zaraki released unconsciously during rthe SS arc was enough to knock weaker people out and she was way stronger than him at that point.

Doesn't make sense that one could resist a power while not even being powered up in any way.
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Gremmy makes several remarks throughout his appearance stating that he's the strongest there is, that nobody can match him and all that jazz. If you want me to, I can certainly grab a few of those quotes and considering Askin, one of Jwhach's top elite's thinks he's a monster, that says a lot.

So what your saying is that, because of a reitsu difference, Gremmy couldn't have gone..."You can't remember my existence?" Because if that's the case, I'd like to point out that Aizen despite obviously having a huge amount of Reitsu, was still affected by Hirako's Shikai. Aizen's huge array of Reitsu never actually stopped the effects of abilities working on him, he was either too strong for them for them to do lasting damage or just happened to be able to deal with them in someway.

The issue with Reitsu often appears to be related to physical attacks. If your blade strikes and the reitsu is weaker, it doesn't hurt the person. But that surely doesn't seem to be the case of abilities that aren't necessarily physical in their approach. I mean I could think of all kinds of things Gremmy could've done. He could've made it so that water just filled up inside of Kenpachi's head. He could've made spikes erupt from his body, you name it, he could've done it.

I don't see how having a lot of Reitsu changes the aspects of a non-physical ability like imagination when something like an illusion could still get through Aizen's senses despite the pretty big difference in power between Aizen and Hirako.
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Mihawk
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He said he might be the strongest from the Quincy guard, but that's just about it.

What I'm saying is that he couldn't have used an attack that would win him the battle. So while the minor reality warping might and probably should have worked, something that would win him the battle would violate the Reiatsu rule. He's not a war potential and there's a good reason for that (although I'm not sure if war potential is only good guys). And this only matters on large scale as in win most battles. I'm sure there are opponents he could actually beat who have a higher Reaitsu than him.

Barragan can't use his ability on Aizen because it would violate the same rule. Overwhelming power defeats hax. Maybe it still affected him, but not to the point it'd let him win the battle.

@Steve IRRC Barragan made it clear he was impressed by his defeat not necessarily his total power.

But I just read the chapter on Yamamato and you're right on that part. However, it still wouldn't explain why he couldn't use Kyouka to dodge the attack rather than that entire elaborate setup.

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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

On the subject of Respira, the thing is even if it's effect is absolute, it still has limits. For one thing its slow and arguably has a set amount of distance it can travel. Then there's the point that certain things take certain amount of time decay. We see what happens when Soifon detonates her Bankai right in his face, he's fairly wounded and it took a bit before his Respira started to fully decay Hachi's kido as well.

Even with Respira, Aizen pretty much has the advantage in all other categories against Barragan that as long as he keeps check on Respira, there's not much Barragan can do himself. Plus while Aizen's huge amount of Reitsu shouldn't be able to negate the effects of Respira, being time based and all. The sheer amount could probably at least lower the effects a bit or slow them down. In this case, it takes more time for the decay to work.
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lazerbem
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I'm fairly sure Gremmy is similar to MLP's Discord in that they're very impressive reality warpers...on weak objects. If they're facing someone with a higher power level, then their reality warping suddenly turns to jack-s*** and they can't directly manipulate stronger foes.
Edited by lazerbem, May 17 2016, 01:27 AM.
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Crazy cat cults in the woods
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Mihawk
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Dark Matter
May 17 2016, 01:12 AM
On the subject of Respira, the thing is even if it's effect is absolute, it still has limits. For one thing its slow and arguably has a set amount of distance it can travel. Then there's the point that certain things take certain amount of time decay. We see what happens when Soifon detonates her Bankai right in his face, he's fairly wounded and it took a bit before his Respira started to fully decay Hachi's kido as well.

Even with Respira, Aizen pretty much has the advantage in all other categories against Barragan that as long as he keeps check on Respira, there's not much Barragan can do himself. Plus while Aizen's huge amount of Reitsu shouldn't be able to negate the effects of Respira, being time based and all. The sheer amount could probably at least lower the effects a bit or slow them down. In this case, it takes more time for the decay to work.
I reread it and I couldn't find the part where Barragan says he lost by strength. Looks like I was wrong on that.

Aizen actually shows Kyouka to him before however they battle.

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gokussj1000
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no way they are getting past buu
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Was there ever a thing where after becoming an Arrancar, Barragan decided to attack Aizen again? We all know what happens when they first meet up in Hueco Mundo but I don't recall anything ever happening afterwards. Barragan just kind of grudgingly accepts his place as #2 and seemingly wants to bide his time until he can get revenge.
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I'll Take This
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gokussj1000
May 17 2016, 02:45 AM
no way they are getting past buu
They are not even going to get past Nappa. He lifts 2 fingers and wipes them all out.

Gremmy is a joke, he popped trying to imagine shikai kenpachi power which can destroy a country level meteor. Barragan got hurt from Soifon attack, imagine what a moon level blast.
Edited by I'll Take This, May 17 2016, 04:11 AM.
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