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| Z-Sword Gohan vs Vegeta | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 26 2016, 12:42 AM (4,820 Views) | |
| + Emmeth | May 1 2016, 11:19 AM Post #46 |
I ♥ Yoeri
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We're not saying Base Z-Sword Gohan is close to Fat Boo, we're saying his maximum power (SSJ2) would be close to it. |
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| * Yu Narukami | May 1 2016, 11:26 AM Post #47 |
Izanagi!
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No, I'm talking about his transformed state. Kaioshin even talks about him transforming, so it's a fact that they're comparing a SSJ2 Gohan to Fat Boo. If his arm strength didn't increase though, his SSJ2 wouldn't be anywhere near Fat Boo, and you'd be destroying the credibility of three different characters in one fell swoop. Every instance of 'power' in the manga have been talking about power in a general sense and, mostly, Ki. Why wouldn't they continue to specify arm strength if that was what they were talking about? Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P12.3-5 Context: as Gohan trains with the Z Sword Kaioshin: “…This is absolutely unbelievable…To think that he’d become able to swing the Z Sword around so much in such a short period of time.” Gohan: “…Father gave it his all and continued training even after going to the afterlife…I’ve got to draw closer to him, even just a li-little bit…Because Ma-Majin Boo is still alive…!” Drawing closer to Goku's 'arm strength' doesn't make any sense. He'd have to be treating arm strength like some kind of sure-fire way to kill Boo. Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4 Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.” Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!” Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…” 'Greatest power in the world' means having the most arm strength? It makes everyone seem like they don't know what they're talking about, and Goku knows that just hitting Boo isn't going to do anything at all. In order to even stand a tiny bit of a chance, Gohan's Ki would have to be near Boo's; physical strength isn't going to do anything against him. Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.4-6 Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’ Elder Kaioshin: “Hey, you over there, you were the one who pulled the sword out, right? Come over here a little. If someone could pull that sword out and swing it around, then once I get through with them they’ll de~~efinitely be able to become the best in the universe.” Elder Kaioshin: “Still…I thought the person who’d pull that sword out and release me would be some Kaioshin…To think that it would be an Earthling…It’s the end of the world!” Kaioshin: “My…my sincerest apologies…” Does high arm strength coincide with high potential? Why would being physically powerful mean that Gohan's got the potential to be the strongest in the Universe? |
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| Zoom | May 1 2016, 11:48 AM Post #48 |
 
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Gotenks improved in the RoSat as a whole where piccolo stated he improved. Even though i disagree with Gotenks post-rosat being close to Evil Buu as the fight proved, Piccolo stated clearly that he improved whereas Gohan said he increased in arm strength. Like i've said where is the connection, please show of every stance it relates to power like you've stated
So do you think this sword gives outrageous power if you swing it around for a day, was he talking about the actual legend where east Kaioshin told him? Man, if this sword can grant the user both powers as swinging the sword and having Old Kaioshin uses his ability the who needs to train right? Even though i was joking ^, i'm sure you could read the context of what was said. |
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| * Yu Narukami | May 1 2016, 12:16 PM Post #49 |
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Izanagi!
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So, y'want me to go and find every single instance where the word 'power' was used in the Manga? You're perfectly comfortable destroying the credibility of three different characters? Kaioshin's apparently so bewildered that he forgot that physical strength isn't relevant to killing Boo. Gohan's so delusional that he thinks that increased arm strength will mean that he can kill Boo. Goku's a pathological liar who feels comfortable making a statement that he'll have to go back on later on. Let's say that Elder Kaioshin wasn't trapped in the Sword and there was no opportunity for Gohan to have his potential unlocked. What's Goku going to do? ''You only have to train a little bit more, Gohan, and then you'll definitely be able to beat Boo!''? If Gohan really didn't get any stronger Ki-wise, Goku would have to reveal that he was lying, because eventually Gohan would realise that he wasn't anywhere near as strong as Goku was implying with his 'lie'. |
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| Zoom | May 1 2016, 12:59 PM Post #50 |
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You said:
You can if you want, but no need because I know majority of them have used words such as "greater", "everything about them", "his level is astounding", "his power has doubled" I don't see the connection between when someone specifically talked about arm to increasing chi that is needed.
Why are you asking me? You should ask that question to Toriyama as why he wrote the chapter that way. More specifically ask if Gohan made real improvements with swinging the z-sword why was there a need to have another power right after the first power up? I mean straight after his first so-called power increase you have Old Kaioshin being introduced. This is just knowing about Fat Buu.
Goku lied about lot of things in the Buu arc alone. If there is no Old Kaioshin training then Gohan would have died a horrible death regardless. If Gohan have kept up with his training from the Cell arc to Buu arc, i would only put Gohan way stronger than Ssj2 Goku. But unless Gohan can find a way to access the next level Ssj3 or his own special form which is his potential unlock, then his Ssj2 would have still be not enough since Buu was fighting with a Ssj3. Edited by Zoom, May 1 2016, 01:12 PM.
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| * Yu Narukami | May 1 2016, 01:17 PM Post #51 |
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Izanagi!
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Yeah, and notice how after Gohan talks about arm strength, Kaioshin and Goku talk about 'power', not arm strength. If they were just talking about arm strength, they'd specify that. Give Toriyama some credit, he's very meticulous when it comes to dialogue. He needed another power-up because Boo had another power-up. Gohan getting his power unlocked doesn't mean that he didn't get a power-up before that, that makes no sense. In that case, what was the point of increasing his arm strength if he was going to get his potential unlocked straight afterwards? No, he would've kept training. Goku wouldn't send Gohan to die against Boo, he'd make sure that he was strong enough to beat Boo. If he was actually lying about Gohan being near Boo's strength, he'd have to tell Gohan (if Gohan didn't realise beforehand, which he really should've) that he was lying. Lying literally has no benefit. As for blaming Toriyama, no. It's your interpretation that causes Kaioshin, Goku and Gohan to be unreliable. |
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| Zoom | May 1 2016, 01:45 PM Post #52 |
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What? Buu powered up (when he got angry and split) when Gohan was in the middle of doing his real training. So there was no need for Gohan to have another power up to face Majin fat Buu. So what is your excuse now? Oh really, the same Toriyama that wrote "it was because of those two" to defeat Gohan absorbed Buu but people like you like to dismiss that, is that the Toriyama that has attention to details? |
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| * Yu Narukami | May 1 2016, 01:56 PM Post #53 |
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Izanagi!
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Toriyama planned for Boo to split and get immensely stronger, so it was obvious at the time that Post Z-Sword Gohan wouldn't be strong enough to fight the new Boo. What's your excuse for the fact that Gohan undoubtedly got stronger in some regard? What's the point in increasing his arm strength if he's going to get his potential unlocked shortly afterwards? Yeah. If you have to try and throw the author under the bus in order for your argument to hold water, it says more about your argument than anything else. |
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| EMIYA | May 1 2016, 10:31 PM Post #54 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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What the f*** does that have to do with anything?
You do realize Gohan never got angry right? That was his entire issue with Boo. He couldn't tap into that power he once had before. Even Vegeta noted that weak a*** Gohan could surpass them if he truly got angry and considering just how much potential Gohan is shown to have, Goku was not wrong in his testament that he could literally beat everyone. --- --- You see, your entire argument, if you can call it that, revolves around treating all the characters and the mangaka himself as idiots. Instead of utilizing the statements given in the manga, instead of utilizing the intelligence of the characters. You are using your own head canon and that's why argument has failed the entire way through. Edited by EMIYA, May 1 2016, 10:32 PM.
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| + Pyrus | May 2 2016, 12:04 AM Post #55 |
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Boo got stronger when he split? My whole world has been a lie. |
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| Zoom | May 2 2016, 12:12 AM Post #56 |
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No it's not... it's your nitpicking that makes me think you're a hypocrite, you and Dark Matter. I actually brought forward scans of the entire dialogue, and that's just how Toriyama wrote it WORD for WORD. Maybe you should go out and buy a copy of the manga, then you could read the entire arc instead of just using Herms and saying this part here shows Gohan said this, blah... "oh yes, they are confidant in Gohan's new powers" Here's a food for thought. What are the requirements for becoming strong? ^ you have not provided any evidence to counter Gohan saying he only increased in arm strength or provided any scans throughout the entire 42 volumes to support your claim.
Oh s***.... the amount of lies you tell, that's funny. Even though Toriyama said so himself in interviews that he doesn't plan ahead and also he forgets.  DEBUNKED!!!
That made laugh. Too bad April fools was over a month ago. I actually brought forward evidence of actual manga panels where you nitpick and choose what quotes you want to add and include your head canon as an explanation to why Kaioshin said this or why Gohan said that as oppose to what actually what was said by the characters. And the best evidence you brought forward was Goku just saying "I wonder"... You guys are geniuses. Wait, let me edit that, "I wonder" is a soundproof evidence even though the very next panel you're introduced to new guy in Old Kaioshin that questions what the hell you're doing previously.Old Kai.   I would like to say get a clue, but instead get a manga! Even Mr Hansbrown is full aware that the Gohan we are debating gained his so-called powers during the time he was swinging the sword. Mr Hashbrown So if he understood that, then why can't you? Now, once you understood that, we can debate on how is it possible for someone to gain so much just by swinging a heavy sword. And since throughout the 42 volumes there was never a relationship between arm strength and ki/chi.
Why use disgusting words? Is it the time of the month for you where you have your period? Before I get banned for calling you guys hypocrites, I just want to make things clear. Nagito Komaeda Goku clearly said Kid Buu could destroy the entire universe, but you could dismiss it because other evidence doesn't support it. You guys are on board with that, but here you add your excuses such as "Nagito Komaeda" claiming Toriyama was planning ahead. Bollocks
What are you on about? Evil Buu was form when fat Buu got angry and split and the pure evil absorbed or ate the good Buu and became Evil Buu during when Gohan was training with Old Kaioshin. Edited by Zoom, May 2 2016, 12:14 AM.
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| * Yu Narukami | May 2 2016, 12:24 AM Post #57 |
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Izanagi!
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Let me ask you; what did Toriyama intend to do if he was just increasing Gohan's arm strength? What was the point of inserting it at all? You say that any kind of Ki power gain can't happen because Elder Kaioshin popped out of the sword straight away, but the potential unlock would just negate the arm strength increase too (like the quote you provided said, people use Ki to enhance their physical strength, so Ultimate Gohan's arm strength would be just as powerful if he hadn't trained with the Z-sword). I don't know if ya noticed, but the scans you provided are in Japanese. You can hardly call it context if you don't have an accompanying translation for them. I understand completely what Hashbrown is saying. I'm talking about Gohan's gains from the Z-sword, you're the one bringing up Elder Kaioshin and saying that his introduction somehow negates the possibility of Gohan's Ki increasing at all during the Z-Sword training. As for how it happens, I dunno. How does Piccolo go from < 4,000 to potentially half of First From Freeza in 6 days? You're asking for logic in gains when that has never been the case. How does training in increased gravity increase a person's ki? When it comes to Pure Boo, we can reference Super Perfect Cell considering Solar System busting an impressive feat. Pure Boo isn't tens of times stronger than Super Perfect Cell, and the Universe is billions of times bigger than a Solar System, an obvious difference there. If you're fine with disregarding the opinions of three different characters and writing them off as lies, delusions or whatever else, go right ahead. |
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| Zoom | May 2 2016, 12:44 AM Post #58 |
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1. Why you keep on asking me questions that inserts my own opinion? My opinion, your opinion, DarkMatters opinion don't matter because Toriyama wrote the manga, I can only show what the scans says word for word and provide more panels to show the context. As to why, I have my opinions, but that's just that my own opinion which has no relevance to debating actual statements that has words describing the conversation. We all think we can make the manga better with changing, but in reality for worse or better is written by Toriyama even though if we think certain lines are stupid, it's written by Toriyama. 2. Viz also translated the original manga. 3. No i'm not, i'm saying the entire 42 volumes doesn't support only arm strength as a way increase ki/chi. Especially since Goku says "i wonder" and east Kaioshins complains about what is he saying, that we have no chance, then old Kaioshins straight out dismisses it. 4. No, when Vegeta trains inside the gravity chamber 100x or 150x gravity, he does far more than doing dumb bells which just increases one area - arm strength. He does push ups, dodges lazer beams attacks, improves his reflexes, trains his entire body not just his arms. Goku and Vegeta training inside the rosat also proves this. Gohan with the z-sword is just increasing his arms swinging it around. His not doing what other martial artists do when they train. His swinging the sword. |
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| * Yu Narukami | May 2 2016, 12:49 AM Post #59 |
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Izanagi!
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1. I'm asking because that's the logic that you're using, right? Would you say that it doesn't make sense that Gohan would increase his Ki while training with the Z-sword because of Elder Kaioshin's appearance right afterwards? If that's the logic that Toriyama is following, then why did he talk about Gohan's arm strength in the first place? 2. I don't have the entire Manga Collection on hand at this very moment, and if you're going to provide scans for anything other than visual indicators, then a translation should be provided with it. 3. Could you provide a statement where Elder Kaioshin straight out dismisses it? 4. That's still training their bodies. That's not training their Ki at all, yet all that physical training still helps to increase their Ki by a massive amount. Would you agree that physical training can increase a person's Ki? If so, then it should increase Gohan's too. The fact that he's training his arms shouldn't matter; even if it's not as effective as training his whole body, there should still be a moderate increase at the very least. |
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| Slifer | May 2 2016, 12:49 AM Post #60 |
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Gohan is training with a sword that someone who can one-shot Freeza couldn't lift. He's throwing and swinging the sword all over the place and even doing it in the air (which requires ki, which should be stressful given the sword's nature). It's absurd to think arm strength is the only progress Gohan made. |
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