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| Z-Sword Gohan vs Vegeta | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 26 2016, 12:42 AM (4,822 Views) | |
| Slifer | Apr 26 2016, 08:58 PM Post #16 |
 
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Why do you keep bringing up the ritual? That raised his power past Super Boo. We're talking about Gohan's gains with the sword in relation to Fat Boo. The have no relation to each other.
"Son wait, you're still not strong enough. Your power doesn't even surpass Vegeta despite me initially not being sure if you're weaker than Fat Boo whom I fought as a SSJ3 lulz." |
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| * Yu Narukami | Apr 26 2016, 09:11 PM Post #17 |
Izanagi!
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I dunno, wouldn't Gohan being his kid and one of the last hopes of the Earth actually make him more prone to shooting Kaioshin down? What's the benefit of lying to Gohan about his power? Protecting his feelings? Lying to him, making Gohan get the idea that he may be able to fight Boo in his head and letting him go off and die because he's actually not strong enough?
Edited by Yu Narukami, Apr 26 2016, 09:12 PM.
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| Zoom | Apr 28 2016, 01:27 AM Post #18 |
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CONTEXT 1. Because the context of the whole scenario was Old Kaioshin was the tool that would allow Gohan to kill Buu once and for all. If the training was done after the sword broke, what was Gohan doing before it broked? Swinging a heavy sword? Which did what, increase his arms from 18" to 21"? When has Dragonball really been about muscles and having big arms? Nappa was weaker then Vegeta, and Toriyama made a clear point that bigger muscular guys ain't always the strongest. In Dragonball it's all about the size of the ki and the ability to control it and what techniques are used. Please show me a scan where it says someone got stronger by increasing their arm strength. And not just by a little, the increase Gohan with the z-sword had to made with heavy weights (z-sword) should be around at least 2x to 3x. If you're going by Goku said: "I wonder"... that's not a lot to go by when you focus on a word especially since Goku and Vegeta has made more specific quotes like "we'll be done in for sure" or "..." with Kid Buu. Obviously i don't with agree with Kid Buu > Evil Buu, but if you just take focus on one or two words, then you can make it seem like Kid Buu > Evil Buu which is incorrect according to numerous of other evidences. "I wonder" isn't good evidence to conclude that Gohan made a amazing leap from being weaker than his younger self to almost reaching Fat Buu's level. |
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| Slifer | Apr 28 2016, 01:34 AM Post #19 |
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No one is arguing the training was done when it broke.
Exactly my point. What were they expecting Gohan to do? Punch Boo to death?
I don't need to. Kaioshin was in awe at Gohan's progression and Goku was on the fence about his ability to handle Boo. They were obviously referring to more than Gohan's arm strength.
We go from "An army of Super Saiyans would be useless" to "I wonder (if Gohan alone can beat Boo)?". I'd say that's plenty good evidence. |
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| Zoom | Apr 28 2016, 02:00 AM Post #20 |
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Are you sure? east Kaioshin seems to be reaching and hopeful. He's making up stuff like "I get it" which he doesn't get at all since swinging a sword isn't training and has been disproved by old Kaioshin himself in the next panel calling him out.
^ the strongest power in the universe has been old Kaioshin ability training/draw potential. If he's wrong in claiming "that's the greatest power in the world" and wrong about understanding the training "i get it" what makes him a good evidence? Spoiler: click to toggle |
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| Slifer | Apr 28 2016, 02:25 AM Post #21 |
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Assumption.
Says who? It's not like it's a normal sword. Someone that dwarfs Freeza and can casually bust planets couldn't even lift it. Compared to what Old Kai's ritual did, or course Gohan's progression with the sword seems pathetic.
Kaioshin said this before Old Kai showed up. Saying he's wrong for that is a bit ridiculous. |
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| EMIYA | Apr 28 2016, 03:29 AM Post #22 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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It's really quite simple actually. Goku already has a plan with fusion already. If Gohan's not ready, Goku will say so, he'll make sure Gohan doesn't just barge into a fight he can't win. Considering Goku basically knows that a combination of himself as an SSj2, SSJ2 Vegeta and even SSj2 Gohan wouldn't stand a chance against Boo, and the fact that Goku just literally came back from fighting Boo says it all. He's simply uncertain about Gohan's chances. He can see that Gohan has made some huge gains with the sword, probably judging what his own transformations would be like. Goku can just as easily compare Gohan to himself. And in the end this is what you get. Majin Vegeta was crushed by Boo, he was treated as absolutely inferior and it was outright stated that it didn't matter if he, Goku and Gohan came together. Post Zeta Gohan is given the uncertain nature from a guy who basically just fought Boo as a Super Saiyan 3. Regardless of how close Gohan is to Boo here, this entire ideology that Goku has on Gohan puts him well above Vegeta, far more the weaker Pre-Majin Vegeta from the tournament. |
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| Zoom | Apr 28 2016, 03:40 AM Post #23 |
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Assumption?...
So what does east Kaioshin get? Can you please tell me? He says he get's it.. what does he get? He's analysis of how the sword works is misleading and sometimes wrong plain and simple because the z-sword which Old Kaioshin is trapped inside is the secret. Did east Kaioshin know Old Kaioshin was trapped inside? No... Then east Kaioshin goes on saying "yeah that's it" ^ Can you tell me what does Kaioshin mean when he says "yeah that's it"? What is "it" exactly? That Gohan doesn't need the sword now he has grown so strong that his muscles are bigger and he could transform into a super saiyajin and defeat Majin Buu? It's obviously wrong since old Kaioshin straight out said so when he came out. The evidence is inside the pudding
^ wrong!... Gohan said so himself that he thought that increasing arm strength is what the legend means when obtaining the greatest power. It's plain and simple wrong because of what old Kaioshin said after he got out of the sword. And this has been pretty much disproved by the manga itself throughout the volumes that being bigger or having stronger arms don't equal to winning. Lifting heavy objects doesn't really mean anything i.e Goku in Buu arc barely can lift 40 tons, and in Super with the whole 1000 tons thing. All the times east Kaioshin used the word "z-sword" has always been in the same sentence as Gohan using the z-sword to defeat Majin fat Buu. This proves east Kaioshin doesn't "get it" as he claims because if he did he would know old Kaioshin is inside the sword and the legend was referring to his ability that unlocks someone's potential and draw it past their limits.
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| Slifer | Apr 28 2016, 08:48 PM Post #24 |
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Then why are Gohan and Kaioshin so excited about his newfound strength? "Hey look guys. I have more arm strength. I mean I'm still weaker than pre-Majin Vegeta but who cares LET'S GO!" DM pretty much covered it:
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Apr 28 2016, 09:15 PM Post #25 |
魔王子
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By beginning of the tournament arc, I assume you mean Pre-Majin Vegeta. If so, Gohan stomps.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Apr 28 2016, 09:19 PM.
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| Zoom | Apr 29 2016, 01:20 AM Post #26 |
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You're forgetting that east Kaioshin almost had a heart attack when the z-sword broke in the previous panel... there delusional coming up with excuses to justify the break in the z-sword. Just read Kaioshins and Gohan's responses. "maybe it's this" "maybe it's that" "yeah that's it" "yeah has to be it" E.K: "OMgawd bro... the legendary z-sword... nooooooooooooo..... our chances have diminished" Goku: "I wonder..." E.K: "What are you saying Goku, that we have no chance?" O.K: "Sorry guys, i don't know what you're doing there, but i have some training for the person that could pull out the sword, i could turn him into the strongest" Gohan: "oh boy... if the real training hasn't started yet, what was i doing earlier?" E.K: "you were pumping your arm muscles" Gohan: "i didn't know just increasing arm muscles could double my power level?!" "i wonder if my father had power increases when he was training with weights?" "if i think about it, dad also swung the z-sword, i wonder if he got a little stronger too?" E.K 'oh yeah that's because it only increased for you even though throughout the history strong arms means little to power levels" |
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| EMIYA | Apr 29 2016, 02:15 AM Post #27 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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What does arm strength have to do with anything? Do you think Goku's coming up going. "Yeah Kaioshin, Gohan's arms have gotten stronger, but...is he strong enough to punch Majin Boo I wonder?" Let me answer that rhetorical question. Obviously not, he's looking at Gohan in terms of power and ki, just as anyone would. He's looking at Gohan, seeing how transformation (whether that SSj or SSj2) would be and perhaps, though since its never really brought up, unlikely, how rage may do and how that is going to effect the fight with Boo. All is said and done and Goku just remains uncertain. He probably feels Gohan is less likely to win and that he holds more confidence in his fusion idea of defeating Boo, but the mere act of being uncertain allows Gohan to surpass the likes of SSj2 Goku and SSj2 Majin Vegeta. It's really simple, does Goku feel Gohan will be stronger than him as an SSj2? Or will Gohan be getting near him as an SSj3, the form that's basically needed to fight Majin Boo. And if the answer to that, especially to anyone who thinks Zeta Gohan is weaker than SSj2 Majin Vegeta or more so Pre-Majin Vegeta is simply "No, he cannot win." Again...it's really simple. EDIT: And as a note, swinging around the sword is still training. You're increasing not only your muscles but also adding ki to them as well as would happen when you train at any time. So not only is Gohan getting stronger physically but would naturally be getting stronger ki wise and that's something everyone knows. Nobody, be it Gohan, Goku or even idiot Kaioshin would look at Gohan with just...increased muscles and no changes to his ki and make any remark about defeating an ever infinite regenerating monster like Boo with sheer physical power. They all know that Boo's body is so hard to kill and they need to be able to destroy him completely, or at least do far more than punch him hard enough. Edited by EMIYA, Apr 29 2016, 02:21 AM.
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| Zoom | Apr 29 2016, 10:42 AM Post #28 |
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1. Instead of giving each high fives, how about you provide evidence, not your head canon of what you think should happen, actual evidence throughout the 42 volumes of the manga. The gain your talking about has to be over 2x and that's just being nice. Majin fat Buu was around, but lower than Ssj3 Goku's level which is 4x stronger than his Ssj2 self. 2. I have already proven that Gohan swinging a heavy sword wasn't the training that east Kaioshin intended. So the gains your talking about HAS to be from swinging the sword (should be under 40 tons since Goku in base was able to swing it around a couple of times) ALONE which increased Gohan's arm muscles. This connects with point #1, unless you can provide any statements throughout the manga that big muscles has any connection with someone's power level. Then everything else after I'm going consider to be troll. Oh before I forget... Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.” Even out of Gohan's own mouth/words he said arm strength and not power level or ki/chi. So stop including your head canon of what you think Gohan would have said. That's how Toriyama wrote the manga and that's how Herms translate it word for word. I'm sorry if this condescending, but you guys (Nagito Komaeda, Dark Matter, Hashbrown) have double standards. I'm going to quote my mentor or actually paraphrase his wise words to me. "Even if there is a single piece of evidence that supports something, if there is more evidence supporting the opposite you should disregard it" You know who said that? Spoiler: click to toggle in the thread about Kid Buu.The only piece of evidence is Goku saying he wonders and everything else is subjective. For goodness sake, Gohan himself said swinging the heavy sword has only increased his arm strength and here you insert your own head canon thinking "oh Gohan has to be talking about his power level, what is he going to do punch Buu? |
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| + Pointer | Apr 29 2016, 10:55 AM Post #29 |
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It is easy, for vegeta, defeating majin buu had zero chance While Gohan might have some chance, as goku pointed out ssj3 goku > majin buu > gohan >vegeta ssj3 goku = 15 Majin buu = 10 Gohan = 8 Vegeta = 5 Edited by Pointer, Apr 29 2016, 10:55 AM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Apr 29 2016, 12:20 PM Post #30 |
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Izanagi!
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Does Gohan think that the 'greatest power in the world' is arm strength? Arm strength, not matter how large, is going to do nothing if you're going up against a SSJ3-tier character when you're weaker than most SSJ2s. If his arm strength really is the only thing that did increase, either somebody was hitting Goku in the face with the idiot ball non-stop or he wants his kid to die. If he knows Gohan isn't nearly strong enough, why would he act uncertain. He was comfortable enough leaving the fate of the Earth to Gohan and Goten on separate occasions, even when Gohan didn't want to protect it, so his kids' feelings don't trump his bluntness. Telling Gohan to his face that he's not nearly strong enough to fight Boo would ensure that Gohan would stay there and continue training. Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P12.3-5 Context: as Gohan trains with the Z Sword Kaioshin: “…This is absolutely unbelievable…To think that he’d become able to swing the Z Sword around so much in such a short period of time.” Gohan: “…Father gave it his all and continued training even after going to the afterlife…I’ve got to draw closer to him, even just a li-little bit…Because Ma-Majin Boo is still alive…!” Is he talking about drawing closer to Goku's arm strength? Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4 Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.” Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!” Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…” Is Kaioshin talking about Gohan's arm strength being powered up when he transforms? Arm strength is specified, but it doesn't exclude everything else; arm strength was just the thing that was increased the most. The way everyone talks about Gohan's power in general afterwards tells us that they're talking about Gohan's power in a general sense. Heck, why would Goku question if Gohan's arm strength is greater than Majin Boo? It doesn't make any sense. Edited by Yu Narukami, Apr 29 2016, 07:12 PM.
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