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- Base Gotensk pre vs Cell post zenkai
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| Base Gotensk pre vs Cell post zenkai | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 26 2016, 09:13 PM (727 Views) | |
| + Pointer | Mar 26 2016, 09:13 PM Post #1 |
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who wins this? |
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| + Son-Goku | Mar 27 2016, 01:39 AM Post #2 |
孫悟空
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Cell wins this. All Gotenks would need to win however is one transformation but this is base Gotenks so Cell wins especially since this is pre RoSaT. |
 RP Character Bios Dragon Ball Super: The Super Human Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power | |
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| EMIYA | Mar 27 2016, 02:48 AM Post #3 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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Goten and Trunks literally just felt SSj3 Goku and Fat boo duke it out in West City. They have both been met to the fact that their father and older brother were "seemingly" killed by Boo. Everyone, including PIccolo who is the only to know that Gotenks can't win, expresses how great Gotenks' power is. And by all means, when Gotenks did fight Boo, off screen as it may be, he was still good enough to at least survive and come back home. Where as Majin Vegeta got stomped so hard he needed to be rescued. Take that as you will. Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P12.5 Context: After Gotenks takes off, saying he'll beat Boo Kuririn: “He-he’s pretty haughty, but just maybe he re-really will be able to take care of [Boo]…” Yamcha: “Ye-yeah…He sure seemed pretty confident…” Even Krillin is under the impression that he might be able to win. And Krillin not only felt Goku vs Fat Boo but personally saw Vegeta ineffectively blow himself up as well. This is the guy who took one kick from Cell and could immediately tell the kind of poop Vegeta had stepped in. In comparison, No. 16 was still reading Vegeta's absolute superiority on his scouter. Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.1 Context: after Gotenks is formed successfully for the first time Kame-sennin: “Wh-what a storm of ki…! They did it! It’s a success!” Old Turtle Hermit is expressing his awe at it. And he too is quite adept at sensing ki. He was the guy who while watching the battle of Goku and Cell on television could easily see Goku's inferiority. This guy would have felt powers like SSJ2 Kid Gohan and most certainly SSJ3 Goku and Fat Boo. The thing is, considering Boo's ki is constantly referred to as a lie and that Boo was pretty much lollygagging along with Goku and just having a fun time, leaves more than enough options for Gotenks to be very strong, well above any SSJ2, but still greatly underestimate his opponent and get smacked around as a result. I surely think its a lot better to think of Gotenks as stronger than the likes of Cell, Vegeta, Goku, Gohan and other SSJ2 tier characters. And that he's just underestimating Boo's ki (which everyone does because...again...a lie) than to assume Gotenks is actually weaker than the same SSj2 tier characters who have been getting stomped by Boo and that everyone else is just a moron. |
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| + Pointer | Mar 27 2016, 12:26 PM Post #4 |
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but that gotenks is featless unless you say the ssj multiplier is about *2 i cant see him stomping ssj2 tier characters that easily. |
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| Billa | Mar 27 2016, 01:15 PM Post #5 |
Thala na Gethu!
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Yup. Pre Base Gotenks is basically featless The off-screen fight can't be used as an arguement. Anime Filler showed Fat Boo not putting any actual effort pounding Gotenks, (ironically quite similar to how he brushed off SSJ2 Gohan) while with SSJ2 Veggie & SSJ3 Goku, Boo displayed certain level of "battle-mode". Manga treated the whole scenario as slapstick, followed by Gohan's exasperated reactoon to Old Kai's "ritual dance". Which again indicates the dominant slapstick vibe in the series I dont know how seriously I'd take a slapstick scenario considering how even some of Toriyama's most serious moments are a bit goofy to be considered serious I have Cell's intellect overpowering Gotenks cockyness. My 2 cents |
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| EMIYA | Mar 27 2016, 01:36 PM Post #6 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Featless? That's fine, let me take Buff Boo, who is also featless in the manga and I shall kindly put him on Base Goten's level. Statements be damned. I mean, with everyone seeing just how pitiful other SSJ2 tier characters have been against Majin Boo and personally seeing the likes of SSj3 Goku's power. I'm kind of surprised Krillin and Muten Roshi and everyone else was actually showing confidence that he might be able to do something. Multipliers don't indicate the story, the plot does. What the story was easily saying was that, yes, Gotenks was strong. Even Piccolo is acknowledging that as well. Everyone has seen that SSJ2 tier characters are essentially nothing to Majin Boo but Gotenks is strong enough that there's level of confidence in everyone else that was certainly not seen with the others who have fought Boo. Are you telling me that Krillin, who has shown excellent ki sensing, the guy who saw the power of SSj2 Majin Vegeta go all out against Fat Boo and ended up dead as a result and yet could not defeat the titular monster. Is going to show confidence in the kid who is even weaker than Vegeta? |
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| Billa | Mar 27 2016, 02:36 PM Post #7 |
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Thala na Gethu!
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Its superficial even by Toriyama's standard of using inconsequential, irrelevant side characters like Krillin, Roshi & Piccolo's statement as yardstick to gauge Gotenks strength. I hope my post didnt tick you. You're blatantly throwing points without thinking Buff Boo was a transitionary character who was there like for 2 panels before assuming his final form. But even Buff Boo: 1. Striked fear into Kibito Kai 2. Striked fear into Goku & compelled him into asking "isnt his chi getting bigger?" 3. Post transformation, both Goku & Veggie were visibly confident on taking Kid Boo Now with t hese 3 points, its crap to comfortably place Buff Boo above Goten just cuz he's featless Which is different to a clash that was meant to stress the point of Base Goten pre requiring strength. Statements & feats should correspond imo. Or else, its meaningless discussion. |
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| EMIYA | Mar 27 2016, 03:29 PM Post #8 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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See there you go, you have quotes about Buff Boo right? Well you have quotes about Gotenks in the same way you have quotes about Zeta Gohan. All of these characters are featless but statements surrounding them gives you a relatively good idea of where they may fall in. Buff Boo is stated to be stronger than Super Boo. Zeta Gohan is given "questionable" confidence from Goku himself despite having just faced Fat boo earlier. Considering how it was stated that people like SSJ2 Goku, Vegeta and Gohan combined wouldn't beat Fat Boo, it would stand that this Zeta Gohan (inferred through transformations) would be stronger than those SSj2 tier characters. Otherwise Goku, who has always been blunt in his approach would just outright tell Gohan he has no chance instead of being so uncertain. And so we have Gotenks here, all these characters have felt the power of SSJ2 Goku, Majin Vegeta, Fat Boo and SSj3 Goku and many of these characters are very good at ki sensing. It's really hard for anyone to express any confidence in a guy weaker than the ones above. Plus nothing really stops Gotenks from being stronger than the likes SSj2 Goku and Majin Vegeta while still being significantly below Fat Boo. I'd certainly like to believe there's a level of competence from everyone like Krillin and Muten Roshi are showing when they express a measure of confidence in Gotenks. That Gotenks is at least showing power stronger than those who have essentially been wrecked by Boo but at the same time even with Gotenks' great power, he's still isn't up to par to fighting Boo. Similar in the way that Cell when going full power, struck awe and fear in everyone, clearly showing power that until SSj2 Gohan came hadn't even been seen, but despite that great power, is still significantly below Gohan. I see no reason why Gotenks can't be the same. Expressing great power that is acknowledged by everyone but unfortunately whether through overestimating himself and/or underestimating Boo, finds he's still biting off more than he can chew. |
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| + Clearin | Mar 27 2016, 04:49 PM Post #9 |
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I think there is arguments to be made for both sides really. Obviously Gotenks belief that he could beat Boo should logically put him above the SSj2's, and Krillin's statement backs it up right? Buuuut it could be explained: -Everyone's reactions, like Piccolo and Roshi, could easily just be taking into account that Gotenks is in base. Also just because they say it's amazing doesn't mean it's better than SSj2 anyway. -I think that Krillin was saying Gotenks might beat Boo based only on Gotenks confidence (Yamcha himself says this out loud). He assumes Gotenks is holding back power. It's the same way he knew Trunks was holding back power, because of the way Trunks was acting. -In order for Krillin to say Gotenks truly has a chance based on the Ki Gotenks was putting out at the time, he'd have to be stronger than SSj3 Goku, who as far as everyone else knows, can't beat Boo. Obviously this wasn't the case since Gotenks got the s*** kicked out of him. -Gotenks confidence is somewhat similar to Kibitoshin claiming he could beat Bootenks.Using the exact same logic, that would put him above Ultimate Gohan since they know Bootenks beat Gohan, similar to how Gotenks thought he could beat Boo despite knowing he beat SSj2 Vegeta. In both cases a character, Piccolo or Elder Kaioshin, immediately shut them down. The main difference is Kibitoshin seems to realise this right away while Gotenks doesn't, so there's more to be said for Kibitoshin simply getting too hyped up with himself, compared to Gotenks who remained confident he could win even after being told he couldn't. Gotenks is a much cockier character though, so I can see why being told "no" wouldn't change his mind. -While I don't agree that "Gotenks is a gag character", I do think this SCENE specifically was a bit of a 'gag' scene. Gotenks flies off saying he'll win the battle, some characters like Krillin and Yamcha start to have faith in him, then it directly cuts to Gotenks wobbling back all beaten up saying he couldn't beat Boo, cue everyone doing that typical anime fall thing. Of course just because it's used as a joke doesn't mean everything has to be ignored for it to work (though I guess you'd have to ignore the fact Gotenks knows SSj3 Goku couldn't beat Boo?). I think both sides work tbh. I don't particularly follow either one strongly. Edited by Clearin, Mar 27 2016, 04:49 PM.
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| EMIYA | Mar 27 2016, 05:16 PM Post #10 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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I think you really only got 2 options here. If you say Base Gotenks is weaker than SSj2 Goku, Majin Vegeta and these other SSj2 tier characters outright stated and shown to be nothing to Majin Boo...then so be it. At that point Gotenks is a straight up idiot...which to be fair...he kind of is. But he's apparently so dumb that he's going to fight a guy when his own power is weaker than Vegeta's own. It shows that Goten and Trunks are morons for trying to attack someone they should know full well they can't defeat. When Krillin and Muten Roshi, both of whom I think anyone would agree are for competent fighters than Gotenks see that Gotenks is actually still weaker than Vegeta and what not and still allows him to go off. It really doesn't say a lot for their characters. It makes them look like morons when both of them should be able to tell pretty easily that Gotenks still isn't strong enough. The only one apparently smart here is Piccolo. It makes everyone (but Piccolo) whether it's Gotenks, or Krillin or Muten Roshi just seem incompetent and putting trust in someone who they should clearly stands no chance. --- --- Or you can take the second option as mentioned before. Where Gotenks is very strong, much stronger than SSj2 Goku, Majin Vegeta, etc but he's still not capable of fighting Majin Boo. There's been multiple times where despite an opponent having great power, he ends up not being on par with the threat he's against. At this point you can understand Krillin and Roshi's attitude. Gotenks is strong and they may be under the impression that at least since Gotenks is stronger than SSj2 Goku and Majin Vegeta, he may be able to do something. They're proven wrong but at least it shows there's some merit in their confidence for Gotenks. Piccolo of course can acknowledged Gotenks' great strength but as he's already been told or at least under the impression that Fat Boo is even more dangerous and that Goku couldn't beat him, he understands that Gotenks is biting off more than he can chew. And Gotenks, regardless of how much of an idiot he may act, at least has the common sense to fight a guy when he's at least stronger than his own father who died. In this case even if he is stronger than Vegeta, he has ultimately found himself taking on more than he bargained for. it doesn't help that Boo's ki is stated many times to be a lie and its hard to reads him in the first place. I again bring up the Cell Argument. Cell thought he was going to give Gohan a tough fight and got manhandled as a result. Neither Cell nor Gotenks would be defined as weak, they probably eclipsed most of the characters seen so far, but they just don't stand up to their respective opponents. All in all, this option allows for everyone to be semi-competent. It allows for people to both acknowledge Gotenks' strength but at the same time, dictate that Boo's also far more powerful than expected one which is given many reasons for such as the lying ki. You could put Gotenks on Good Boo's level, little more little less (More personally for me) and everything pretty much fits. Of course I think we can even use the Post Base Gotenks argument here. Piccolo remarks that Base Gotenks is very strong and may be able to defeat Super Boo. Gotenks gets thoroughly owned. Piccolo's a genius though who knows what he's talking about. In this case, we don't say Gotenks is weak, we just infer that they've underestimated Super Boo's power. |
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| + Clearin | Mar 27 2016, 06:46 PM Post #11 |
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Roshi never claimed Gotenks could beat Boo, he just said he had amazing Ki, that doesn't imply anything other than Gotenks is extremely strong, especially in the context that Gotenks is only in base form. The problem is that you can't just compare Gotenks to SSj2 Vegeta; At this point SSj3 Goku had also fought Boo, and as far as everyone else knows, couldn't win. Piccolo is the only character who knows that Goku held back against Boo (and Goku even told Piccolo that he "probably" couldn't have won). From everyones point of view, Gotenks needs to be above Super Saiyan 3 Goku to beat Boo, Goten and Trunks themselves also sensed and saw Goku's battle with Boo, so why would they only compare themselves to Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta? Why not Goku? It just feels like a bit of cherry picking, we know for a fact that base Gotenks isn't stronger than SSj3 Goku, so we just ignore that and move on to the next strongest fighter to have fought Boo, and just ignore that Gotenks is, indeed, a complete moron who doesn't know what he's doing? It wouldn't even be the only time a fused character gets overcome with unjustified confidence in this arc. The argument would be great if Goku's battle with Boo didn't happen, but as it was in the story, for it to work you need to assume they completely ignored the fact Super Saiyan 3 Goku couldn't beat Boo (Again, from their points of view), which makes them all incompetent anyway, the very thing you were trying to avoid. Edited by Clearin, Mar 27 2016, 06:47 PM.
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| EMIYA | Mar 27 2016, 08:24 PM Post #12 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Let me get this straight. Gotenks (Goten and Trunks essentially) Krillin, Yamcha, Roshi, and every person on the lookout essentially minus a select few have not only felt SSJ3 Goku's power but have seen that the likes of SSJ2 Majin Vegeta going all out and ending up killing himself to no avail while ultimately getting beaten to near death too. Proving that someone as strong as Vegeta stood no chance against Boo. This same Gotenks decides, that despite being weaker than his father who was beaten to near death by Boo, he is now going to confidently stroll up and take Boo down and then everyone minus Piccolo is going to say, "sure, he might actually do it." That honestly baffles me. At least with Goku and Boo, it's essentially stated their holding back and I believe Goku only expressed the point that he was holding back and couldn't defeat Boo to Piccolo while everyone else is in the unknown. I don't see why Gotenks and everyone else can't come under the impression that his power is at least closing in on what they recently just felt from Goku and Boo. Perhaps adding a bit of a significant gap similar to FP Cell and SSj2 Kid Gohan but also coming under the realization that Boo was holding back and Gotenks nor anyone else but Piccolo realizes just how dangerous Boo is. I believe that after everyone saw the power of SSj3 Goku, being anywhere near that confident in Gotenks should at least express to them that Gotenks is getting near SSj3 Goku in some way. It may be, again, similar to Cell vs SSj2 Kid Gohan whom despite getting closer was still fairly insignificant compared to Gohan. Add in the fact that it doesn't help Goku and Boo were seemingly holding back as well, increasing that gap. I would like to believe that, than to believe that Gotenks, being an entire transformation weaker than SSj3 Goku thinks he's going to whoop Boo's back end and more importantly, that people like Krillin, who is recognized as a very competent and intelligent fighter would agree with Gotenks as well. Especially when in other situations, Krillin has easily recognized another opponents' superiority even when someone else (like No. 16) is expressing the opposite. |
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| + Sandy Shore | Mar 27 2016, 09:30 PM Post #13 |
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Sure. As Clearin pointed out, Kibitoshin thought he would be able to fight an even stronger Boo, and it took another character admonishing him for talking nonsense to make him recognise that he's far too weak. This doesn't work with Gotenks because of his over-sized ego, and Yamcha and Krillin primarily seem to base their belief on his confidence. Also worth pointing out, Krillin is holding on to this idea of fusion being "strongest" because Goku said so, as evidenced by a conversation between him and Piccolo when Boo changes. It's clear that Krillin trusts Goku's trust in the technique considerably, and it might play in to his faith of Gotenks pulling through. The rest of what you say makes sense, but it's not necessary. Everyone—even Videl—notes that Gotenks is very, very strong - which he is. No one makes any note of comparing him to the likes of Majin Vegeta, SSJ3 Goku, or Boo, though. Piccolo makes it clear that he absolutely can not win, Gotenks begs to differ, and then, noting his confidence, Yamcha and Krillin think he just might pull something off. A reason I don't think your position particularly makes more sense than the alternative—though, as I said, it definitely does make sense—is because Gotenks was of no consequence to Boo. Vegeta was strong enough to hurt him, and make him want to make sure that Vegeta paid with his life. If Gotenks was stronger than Vegeta, especially by the impressive amount that your position requires, then he absolutely should be able to hurt Boo, and, if he hurt Boo, then I don't see Boo letting him leave with his life. Many take Gotenks' survival to mean that he's that much tougher than Vegeta—I know it's not your argument, but I felt it worth mentioning—but I take it to mean that he was just that insignificant. Comically insignificant. Edited by Sandy Shore, Mar 27 2016, 09:41 PM.
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| + Pointer | Mar 29 2016, 04:36 PM Post #14 |
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mangawise he is featless. You cant change this. We can assume a lot but personally I cant have him even to ssj2 level as I dont have ssj3 goku more than 10 times stronger than an ssj2 |
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| DBZAOTA482 | Mar 29 2016, 10:53 PM Post #15 |
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Cell shows Gotenks the terror of perfection. |
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