Edgar Allan Bro

 

You should probably cite your sources on that.

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Eleven out of 15 Muslim rape gang members were found guilty of repeatedly raping a 14-year-old non-Muslim girl in the town of Keighley in northern England.

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In relation to ethnicity, the data was often recorded to a particularly poor standard at the point of capture. ‘Ethnicity’ was
often conflated with ‘nationality’ and neither factor captured according to a conventional or standardised classification
scheme. Within the available dataset there was a significant difference between the groups. For groups one and two
combined, the ethnicity of 38% of the offenders was unknown, 30% were white, 28% Asian, 3% Black and 0.16%
Chinese. When only group one was analysed, the offenders were found to be 38% white, 32% unknown, 26% Asian,
3% Black, and 0.2% Chinese.

Edgar Allan Bro

 

The 1 thousand men thing has so far shown to be a bunch of men who have never drunk alcohol finally getting access to it.

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You seem to say the media is for them when in reality there seems to be a general consensus that it was some type of organized attack.

Agenda

 

We should look to the gender of the Cologne attackers - not their race

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Those who have never fought for women’s rights will opportunistically use women’s sexual trauma as the vehicle for their xenophobia, another brick for their much-loved border

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For xenophobes and racists, or merely anyone opposed to immigration, this story is Christmas come a week late. Rightwing politicians are salivating at this juicy new angle of attack on Angela Merkel’s “open door” refugee policy

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Many Germans are asking why politicians, police and broadcasters seem so reluctant to discuss what happened under cover of the crowds (the state broadcaster ZDF apologised for not covering the attacks until Tuesday), and whether it’s because the attackers are widely described as looking Arab or north African. Which is why, of course, liberals like me are reluctant to talk about it.

Edgar Allan Bro

Mar 6 2016, 04:06 AM

I'd be nice to have some real data. If you care about the right answer it'd be better to find actual statistics rather than combing through searches to confirm biases. I really hate when smart people commit clear confirmation bias. In case you didn't know it's a reality in which you can ultimately "prove" any view point if you look hard enough for the evidence.

I couldn't find any in your post apart from the majority viewpoints from Muslims which has real sources (Pew Polling would have been the better source).

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As for that I agree. It's kind of frightening, but at the same time you have to realize Islam is a recent religion and early Christianity and Judaism were more or less the same. Islam has been really watered down from what it used to be too, but trying to cause divisionism is not the intellectual response and rather the hysterical one that lead to the Cold War. Once again, I am OK with the political stance against immigration, because that's only a political stance. Trying to dehumanize adherents of an entire faith is not OK as I see it on the other hand. As I also said on the other thread it gets harder to do when you have friends that are Muslim. If you meet the Muslim MSA guys on my campus they all practice heavily but also criticize anything and everything you've find abhorrent above.

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From what I remember that while immigrants in the UK do commit crimes on average, the UK has classically been known for issues for child grooming regardless.

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And yes I'm completely fine with saying immigrants of deferring nationality are more likely to commit crime. I'm not saying it's something innate inside them but it's the clash that happens with cultures.

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Italian, Irish, etc Americans all used to be the spearhead of the worst violent crime and rape in America when they initially came.

Pelador

 

You can't refuse people entry to a country just because of morally and socially incompatible views. We're not Iran. That kind of morally judgemental attitude belongs in the Victorian times when we assumed that we were the moral authority on everything. We're not enlightened enough as a nation to make such judgements on people's culture. You can set up a system where they get points for academia or previous work experience. Judge immigrants for real merits. Not some bulls***, arbitrary moral code.

Raven

 

to add on there's also statistics that show that Americans are OK with drone strikes that kill innocents, so nothing is really black/white here

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It seemed organized but it really wasn't. The media certainly gave the impression but there was no evidence for it. The culture thing seems to be reverse engineering the issue - but I will agree to some extent. I've read that Islamic cultures tend to sexually repressive. When you mix that with alcohol all those desires start popping out.

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"It is better for an iron rod nail to be driven into the head of a man, than for him to touch a woman who is not permissible for him" The hadith is narrated by the great Hafiz of Hadith , at-Tabrani, in his al-Mu'jam al-Kabir (Vol.20 Pg.211) and by the Muhaddith al-Ruyaani, in his Musnad (Vol.2 Pg.323)."

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[4.23] Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers’ daughters and sisters’ daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[4.24] And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah’s ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

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[2.223] Your wives are a tilth (land) for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.

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As for media bias I'm not gonna even touch that. It's way too reminiscent of white rights folks who run the same blogs trying to confirm biases that the media hates white people and loves black people. Most common example being that the media doesn't specify the race of the person committing the crime (because in the cases more of often then not it will be black). I always find it interesting that Europeans say that there isn't enough media coverage of who commits a crime while the only the only thing I hear about Europe is that immigrants are causing issues and/or it being a secular utopia (exaggeration, do not respond).

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The reason liberals don't want to put a skin color or religion on the person committing a crime is because liberals tend to be forward-thinking (not to conflate with always being right) and hope that retribution is only given to a person committing a crime not people that share the same skin color or faith.

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I don't remember saying crime was acceptable.

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To top things off I'd like to once again say I am not against the political ideology of immigration reform. I was for European immigration reform on this forum before it was cool.

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It's a false equivalence, really. Americans—to say nothing of the British—are okay with civilians dying as a biproduct of attacking enemy soldiers. It naturally follows, I'm sure, that those on the other side look on America's attitude as unfavourably and disdainfully. Even other Americans do.

When Muslims attack civilians, directly as their target, other Muslims show their support or condone their actions. It naturally follows, of course, that we look on those particular Muslims unfavourably - I should hope disdainfully. But, we're not allowed to. We're told by each other "but Americans accept the killing of civilians", etcetera.

Not only is the intent not directly comparable, but you (collectively, not specifically - though it might apply) accept all of their grievances, going so far as to complain on their behalf, but you don't attack the, at least equally, reprehensible Muslims who condone more extreme Muslim behaviour.

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I've read that Islamic cultures tend to have misogynistic views towards women, feeling that it is immoral for them to not be fully covered-up and in the company of a male relative when outside; looking upon them as potential property that they can legally rape and beat. When you mix that with alcohol, all those desires and attitudes start getting acted upon.

Sexually repressed? Compared to who, or what?

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This is actually about marriage, but the quote you provided states that it is only better for him to drive an iron rod nail through his head, than touch a woman that is not permissible for him. This inherently implies that some women are permissible for him to rape. Since he can rape his own wife:

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During the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad, a rapist was punished based on only the testimony of the victim. Wa'il ibn Hujr reported that a womam publicly identified a man who had raped her. The people caught the man and brought him to the Prophet Muhammad. He told the woman to go, that she was not to be blamed, and ordered that the man be put to death.
In another case, a woman brought her infant to the mosque and publicly spoke about the rape that had resulted in her pregnancy. When confronted, the accused admitted the crime to the Caliph Umar who ordered his punishment. The woman was not punished.

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If a certain group is typically the perpetrator of a certain crime, then it is good sense to recognise that. Not so you can jump on them for every minor action—a trait unique to America, it's worth noting—but so you're prepared for and can prevent future happenings. Profiling is sane within reason, and America isn't sane for this reason.

Their skin colour and race is important in this context because it is indicative of who they were, and where they came from. In this case, they were immigrants, that seemingly come from countries where women are viewed very differently. Well, we know as much, don't we?

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I know well enough this isn't what you were trying to say, but I don't see what else "it's a younger religion; other religions used to do it, too", and, "other cultures used to do horrible things, too", is meant to say, other than to silence the opposition from criticising, based on the recognition that our own cultures were once (at least nearly) as bad.

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Instead of silencing the criticism, however, it comes across as condoning the bad elements, and putting it down to youthful stupidity. Implying that it's going to mature, and we just have to be patient with it. Islam has the benefit of seeing and interacting with more civilised views, where ours had to figure these things out on their own. There's nothing wrong with expecting it to learn faster.

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I don't feel very cool.

Edgar Allan Bro

 

All I said was that it's not really black and white and you took it upon yourself to say that I meant they were equivalent.

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The research institutes that investigate Islamic extremism claim that the source of this issue is that Muslim men are expected to suppress their desires as much as possible.

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Err your interpretation of "permissible" is without question off base and another example of confirmation bias. http://quran.com/23 starting from 5-7. "Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors".

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http://islam.about.com/od/crime/f/rape.htm

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To start off Americans don't jump on ever minor action committed by blacks.

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Group criminality has no moral ground in the civilized world and those that follow it should bring themselves to the 21st. We accept your right to have such beliefs, but draw the line when you impose them on others.

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There's always going to be some "big evil" of the day. That big evil is no reason to discriminate against individuals.

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Other than being patient and treating crime with complete justice there is no better alternative. Expecting to learn faster isn't really practical advice. The other real alternative is complete polarization and it is exactly what ISIS has been attempting to get at. The western emphasis on the person is exactly what gives us the moral high ground. Without that we'd just be people with better weapons.

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The only reason I've been responding is in hopes of teaching not to use polarizing rhetoric when addressing the issue of immigration. You can say "I believe immigrants [in general] commit crimes at higher rates and are a drain on society for several generations, so I believe the immigration process should be thoroughly vetted in that we take the best of the best regardless of race or religion" without being a racist or immoral.

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However, if you don't at least see that, you can at least feel cool for teaching me that internet arguments are fruitless, and I can stop getting involved in these altogether.