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Pokemon Sun and Pokemon Moon
Topic Started: Feb 25 2016, 02:07 PM (13,816 Views)
+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Popcorn

Serperior would probably not be in OU without contrary like many Pokemon if you take away a key ability. But you're making a very bad argument, is Talonflame still in OU without gale wings? what about Klefki and prankster? The answer is they would get bumped down. Pokemon tend to have some general move sets and not all Pokemon's have vast moves. Most times when you see a Pokemon you know its set and/or ability. But that doesn't make them bad, yes Serperior has mainly one combo but just cause you know it doesn't mean you can stop it. Like I said Serprior does have other uses in the OU game alongside this particular combo and you would know if you play him or against him. And you wouldn't be here repeating yourself over and over and over again. Cause all I read from your posts is leafstorm + contrary.......
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Yes, and here's the difference. Most Pokemon can still operate at a good level even if one of their moves, primary or not is taken away. Because most good Pokemon are equipped with a variety of moves, stats, and typing that greatly benefit them. this doesn't mean there are not exceptions to this rule. The primary example that comes to mind for me is Blaziken who is agreed to be far worse if it didn't have Speed Boost.

Take away a Pokemon's primary capability that puts them in OU and yes that's going to effect them. Some may drop an entire Tier. But how many do you think will drop 2-3 tiers because of a loss of one move or one hidden ability?

Most Pokemon in the OU, with exceptions as usual, already have have very strong capabilities to help them out in the metagame. Whether these are a versatile and great moveset or good type coverage. They are already solid Pokemon with solid capabilities, usually brought forth to the OU listing because of additional advantages.

This is pretty much why Scizor is the way he is. Even without Bullet Punch,most would agree it is a very solid Pokemon, great moveset, great typing, great stats, just enough flaws to prevent it from being OU. Thanks to Bullet Punch, that finally helps Scizor break into the OU listing.

It's the opposite of Serperior. Unless you want to tell me Pre-Contrary Serperior isn't bad, or is at least in the UU listing, I don't see how Serperior isn't a bad Pokemon with a good move. Where as I would call Scizor a good Pokemon, with a great move.

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Buuberries
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No

smogon tiers are based on usage. it's all based on statistics

the fact that serperior is in OU in the current metagame is proof that you're wrong whether you like it or not.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

By that logic, Charizard must be pretty good in RBY, GSC and RSE. It's UU, BL and BL respectfully. Yet most agree that until Mega Charziard came around, Charizard was an overrated Pokemon outclassed by its superiors. The thing is, OU as well as the rest of the tiers is also effectively a popularity contest. Arguably even more so than other tiers.

In fact tiers in Smogon are basically based off percentage in which a Pokemon appears in the respective game play. There's always going to be some reason a Pokemon is in OU. if a Pokemon is all over terrible with absolutely nothing to accomplish, it will ultimately be seen for its flaws and taken down.

The only reason Serperior is in OU is Contrary and I've yet to hear otherwise. I've yet to hear otherwise that without Contrary, Serperior would be stuck in NU. And you keep acting like well if he's in OU, he must automatically be a good Pokemon.

Or maybe Serperior just has a really, really good move to counterbalance its incredibly flawed stats, types and lack of versatility. If any of you can give me a good reason why Serperior should still be considered decent to some degree without Contrary fine. I'll call him a good Pokemon with a really good move. Otherwise, I don't see why calling him crap with a good move is wrong.
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Popcorn

Let me get this right.
Serperior is a bad Pokemon.
Serprior is a good Pokemon because of a certain combo.
Serperior is actually a bad Pokemon with a good ability.
Now he's a Pokemon that deserves to be in OU because of his ability......

I will say this once, I would recommend you go play competitive Pokemon in OU and learn why he's good or I can tell you what he can do in addition to his Contrary + Leaf Storm combo.
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Buuberries
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No

just because a lot of kids had charizard as their favourite pokemon and used it because it was their favourite pokemon doesn't mean that it shouldve been in OU in those listed generations. it's about usage IN COMPETITIVE PLAY.

and you aren't showing a clear understanding of "metagame" as a concept since it always evolves and changes with new findings, new strategies, new buffs, and new nerfs. this concept doesn't just apply to pokemon; it's a concept in just about every game with a competitive scene.

we've already said that serperior was s*** without contrary. the fact is he does have contrary now, so how he was played in the metagame bc of that changed and is now considered to not be s*** the way you are saying.

was s***; is now not s***
was s***; is now not s***

you clearly have not played competitively or haven't dabbled in it much, so this is starting to get pointless.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

The fact that neither of you have bothered to answer my question speaks volume for my point. You've yet to tell me how Contrary turns Serperior into a good pokemon, and not just a good move. Why do you think I keep bringing up Scizor for? Because I can bring up multiple points on how Scizor is a good Pokemon even without Bullet Punch, even if it means he's not necessarily going to be in OU.

None of you have told me how Contrary makes Serperior a good pokemon.

In fact, it makes him a more viable Pokemon. And that's kind of what Contrary does now. It makes Serperior more viable by giving a strong option regardless of his usual flaws. I've kept asking for you to prove me wrong and how Serperior's contrary actually enhances Serperior as a Pokemon and not just as a really powerful combination move. A combination move that would seemingly be great on anything.

In fact, considering Serperor's average SP Attack stat, it would probably be better on a lot of Pokemon.

And the fact that none of you have been able to give me a reason, tells me you don't have one. So go ahead, you keep saying Serperior is in OU so he automatically must be good. I still see a crappy Pokemon, made viable because of a single ability. You all keep acting like Serperior is this awesome thing but all I've seen is a weak character with a nearly broken move.

Both of you should be able to explain why this isn't the case. Both of you should be able to explain that Contrary isn't just about boosting up Leaf Storm, but has other options that ultimately help Serperior throughout the metagame. Tell me how Contrary actually enhanced Serperior beyond just giving it a massive attack stat to the point that by the time it's on the third hit, it's stronger than Explosion and even on the 2nd hit, is more or less second only to Explosion.

Do that, you might convince me. Convince me that Contrary finally addresses or enhances the usually very limited and flawed options Serperior has without it and isn't the equivalent of giving Ganondorf, a one hit kill Down B in Brawl and then acting like he's suddenly good because of it.
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Buuberries
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No

Quote:
 
In fact, considering Serperor's average SP Attack stat, it would probably be better on a lot of Pokemon.
4 final evolutions have access to contrary. it probably would be better on other pokemon, but then you'd be talking fantasy and what-ifs, and not what's factual.

it was a crap pokemon
it was given access to contrary -- i.e., it was buffed

this is how the metagame works for every competitive scene in any game

it gets updated to balance out pokemon

serperior was a crap pokemon, like you said; it now is not crap because it was buffed

the fact that it has a low sp. attack is probably WHY they gave it contrary............ now when it gets its buffs from contrary, it doesnt have a low sp attack? that's why it's good? how is that so difficult to understand
Edited by Buuberries, Oct 29 2016, 08:31 AM.
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Popcorn

Serperior is a Pokemon that fits a niche role. Serperior is blazing fast in the OU meta, with a base of 113 speed. The fact that more often the not he will go first is great. You have to be smart with Serperior, he can give you free switches, he can give you free boosts he can do a lot for a simple one trick pony. I will sometimes use him as a lead Pokemon and taunt my opponent giving me a +1. From there I have many options, I can set up a sub I can set up leech seed, I could leaf storm to get a guaranteed +2, I could get a guaranteed toxic or t-wave off, I could even switch reading his switch and get a more favorable matchup. Serperior is versatile yet a one trick pony. You have to react and be smart with him and if you are he will win you games. Serperior can also sweep very well. Not only can he serve well as a lead off he can sweep due to his contrary + leaf storm combo, pulling it off isn't a hard task and when you do you have options. Once his sp.atk is up there he can hit very hard, hp fire or ice will do lots of damage to Pokemon that are weak to it. He can cripple pokes with glare or toxic to wear them down or simply remove the thread with glare. I could go on but you glossed over one fact and thats his high speed that and all the other things i mention is what makes him a great Pokemon. Serperior absolutely belongs in OU and is the 3rd best starter in the game.
Edited by Havoc_Wreaker, Oct 29 2016, 08:49 AM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Contrary helps boost Serperior's average Special Attack stat huh? That makes sense, and would help with the issues Serperior has in regards to its SP attack stat before hand. Serperior is often regarded as someone who before was very limited in the offensive approach.

But there has to be more to it right? I mean Alakazam sports already a massive Special Attack stat of 135 and a whopping 175 in its Mega Form. Plus both its form are faster than Serperior. But it wasn't able to reach into OU like Serperior did. Now in perfect fairness, BLis basically on the edge near OU and it is considered a potential counter for Serperior in the first place.

But that goes to my point before. Alakazam is under a similar pretense as Serperioer. Great speed, great special attack but something has limited it to the BL listing. Something has caused Serperior to jump up. The only thing I see right now is the fact that unlike Alakazam, Serpeior's special attack constantly rise to extreme degrees.

Surely the act of Contrary must do something else. Something that if not enhancing its attack with massive power influx, is hindering or limiting its competition in a way that pre-Contrary Serperior could not do.
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Quote:
 
Serperior is a Pokemon that fits a niche role.


That's honestly not a bad representation. It would certainly make sense. Contrary+Leaf Storm is a a grand combination and while Serperioer definitely has other options, this is its primary and greatest ability that puts it where it is. I still don't feel confident in calling Serperior an overall "good" pokemon. But calling it a "Niche Pokemon" in that it greatly excels in certain aspects honestly doesn't feel that off. Especially if that niche has become essential in the OU metagame.

I could easily see Serperior being in its state as a Pokemon designed as good niche Pokemon that fits within the OU metagame.
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* Stark
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Rock Lobster

EMIYA
Oct 27 2016, 11:50 PM
That would be broken without hazards. Can you imagine it doing 75% damage all the time? You would literally be two shotting any opponent. Imagine being on the opposite end. If your slower, you better hope you can one shot whatever is using it. If your lucky and faster you can at least get two shots off hopefully and finish things off.

I'm sure it's the equivalent of Super Fang, doing 75% total health. And already strong move, but at least its not broken. The only thing that would be more broken than 75% all the time is "Perfect Accurate Guillotine" or something.
Z move only so you're limited to one use per battle


not that broken imo. there's plenty of one shot potential in OU anyways



Also Serperior sucks massive **** in this meta. Virtually no coverage meaning that it gets walled by very common Pokémon (running hp fire? say hi to Heatran. running hp ground? have you met Ferrothorn?) plus it gets f***ed over by Talonflame crazy hard. It can sweep but it requires an immense amount of help from its teammates to cripple the rest of the team and take down what can wall it/threaten it safely and you need to take Scarfed mons into account plus priority users like scizor and mamo which are very common


tldr not worth it in my opinion
Edited by Stark, Oct 29 2016, 10:45 AM.
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+ Clearin
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Havoc_Wreaker
Oct 29 2016, 12:27 AM
When you say a certain starter pokemon isn't good, it means it isn't good and your limiting yourself. Nothing was said about only talking about it in a limiting way lmao.
Well I was only saying that Serperior is a (relatively) bad Pokémon to choose as a starter. It's great in the meta-game, but it's not so good as a starter. lmao.
Edited by Clearin, Oct 29 2016, 12:11 PM.
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Popcorn

Fair enough clearin.
@Riot if you re read my post or read it at all you would know seperior is not bad. Ofc some pokes get shat on by others that's pokemon no one pokemon is gonna have a check for everything ....
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Mihawk
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Just being dependent on a hidden ability doesn't make it bad. OU and even Ubers are filled with mons that would completely change tiers without an ability or move. Medicham and Azumarill come to mind. ... And what about Charizrd Y and X? Take out their abilities and give them their non-mega abilities and they won't even be in UU. There are many pokemon characterized by a single ability and I'm sure GF was aware of that when making the abilities.

Also, Sub/Seed is another great set for Serperior. It's superior speed tier that even beats out speedy legendaries like Latios/Latias lets it troll specially defensive walls that are very common in OU like Chansey because of how much health they get. Want to switch out to Torn T or one of the only other handful of pokemon that beat its speed tier? Enjoy your Glare. And guess what? Glare is one of the handful of moves that beats out Twave in that it can paralyze ground types.

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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Popcorn

Pretty much what I have been saying but better worded.
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