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Pokemon Sun and Pokemon Moon
Topic Started: Feb 25 2016, 02:07 PM (13,817 Views)
EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

They make perfect sense, are you not grasping that?

I already said Serperior with Contrary is an excellent Pokemon, but it doesn't change the fact that without it, it is an absolute abomination when it comes to the Grass Starters and arguably final evolution. And until X and Y gave it Contrary for release in the US, Serperior was stuck there in the NU tier. In fact, most people agree that although Contrary greatly helps out Seperior's standing in the metagame, it's overall moverset is still shallow.

Basically, Serperior was an incredibly crappy Pokemon that got good because of a single hidden ability without necessarily needing to adapt or change to the current metagame. It's often the same thing for Blaziken being in Ubers. Take off "Speed Boost" and it would arguably be nowhere near its current status. Except one would more than likely put Blaziken well above Pre-Contrary Serperior.

In the end, Serperior is pretty much agreed to be a terrible Pokemon, with a shallow moveset and, as said already, has only gotten good because of Contrary. So how I'm wrong on this is something you'll have to figure out yourself. Because I think I'm pretty right when I say Pre-Contrary Serperior sucks balls.

Look at Smogon's own writings with something like the Fire Type Starters. Although they admit that Blaziken is indeed a better Pokemon than the likes of Infernape, they outright admit that the only reason Blaziken is there is because of "Speed Boost." Without it, they again admit Blaziken probably wouldn't be anywhere near that level. Where as Infernape is just an overall more balanced and capable Starter throughout the metagame.

A lot of Pokemon are like that. Many of them may not reach the same "heights" as "Contrary Serperior" but they have far more room to move and have done so throughout the generations.

Edited by EMIYA, Oct 28 2016, 06:45 AM.
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Buuberries
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No

Yea he DID suck balls but he doesn't now because he HAS contrary. What he used to or used to not have is irrelevant unless ur specifically playing old metagame lol because he has something now that made him better than how he was.

Scizor was fairly mediocre before they gave him bullet punch. that doesn't mean he's still mediocre now. Same applies to other pokemom they've buffed throughout the years. You don't judge them on how they used to be bc they aren't like that now.

Smogon tiers are based on how common a certain pokemon is used idk the exact percentages but serperior wouldn't be in OU if he was considered crap as you're saying

Savvy?
Edited by Buuberries, Oct 28 2016, 08:30 AM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Scizor eve in the past was already considered Borderline, someone already imbalanced throughout the UU meta game. And while it is true that "Bullet Punch" has become a primary stable of Scisor's arsenal, it still obtains a good diversity within its moveset. A moveset that throughout the generations and the metagame has allowed Szicor many options.

Bullet Punch in the end, along with other aspect changes of the DPP Metagame, just helped push a guy already imbalanced in UU into the OU tier. If anything until the DPP metagame, Scizor was basically banned since it was in the BL for a good chuck of its time. Unable to get into OU but too much for UU. Even Serperior at least fits somewhere.

I've already said it. Contrary Serperior is good, there is no doubt about that. It's a huge change that it didn't have in previous BW Metagame at the time. But at no point have I been wrong in this conversation. Serperior, along with the rest of the Unova Starter's were considered some of the worst in the generations during their initial run and without Contrary, it is far, far inferior. It is Serferior.

Heck, my original post on the matter was how the Grass types have changed through the Generations and have either gotten better stat wise or just seem to be better appearance wise. in which point I referred to each Grass starter with in its respective generation that it appeared. So when I say Serperior is bad in the initial post. I'm pretty much talking about its initial run into the BW meta game.

Heck, this was my original post on the matter.

Quote:
 
Serprior is arguably the most popular design wise of Unova, definitely more than the wrestling pig for sure, though unfortunately it kind of sucks balls stats wise.


I even specifically mentioned "Unova" which of course is the BW Generation. I did not mention the XY or Kalos metagame. I thought that was kind of obvious as I was listing the grass types in their respective orders in comparison to their original generation starters. Heck, my entire initial post was on the "Grass-Starters" Serperior became good in the XY metagame.

But you know what it isn't in XY?

The Grass Starter.

Same reason as in the very first part of my initial post in how Venusaur was behind the likes of Charizard and Blastoise both stat wise and popularity. Now a days, especially Mega Venusaur, it is a great Pokemon going from UU to OU. But my post was not about what the Grass Starters have become now, it was about what they were then...in their respective initial Generations.

Savvy?
Edited by EMIYA, Oct 28 2016, 01:13 PM.
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+ Clearin
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Especially since the discussion was specifically about them in a starter context, and you don't get hidden ability pokés as starters. Serperior was a pretty bad Poké in-game due to its shallow movepool.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Either way, I will apologize for moving this topic so far off Sun and Moon discussion. Considering we have a "Pokemon Talk" topic more or less right below this one, we can easily bring the conversation over that if its deemed necessary. Allow for me and everyone else to get back on the discussion of Sun and Moon.
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I really wish Incineroar (I would've chose Ferocicat personally) had a different design. I've said it before, I don't particularly dislike the design but the fact that it takes so much inspiration from a fighting type (even if they want to call it Dark) feels just uninspired. I'm also not sure how I feel about a Fire/Dark Starter.

The actual combination I suppose isn't necessarily bad but what I dislike is the fact that it does nothing to address the stats themselves. Something like Rowlet and his evolutions Grass/Flying and Grass/Ghost typing at least help address the issues of its main type. In the first case, Flying helps neutralize Grasses weakness to both Flying and bug and Ghost neutralizes its grass weakness to Bug and Poison. I'm assuming its Ghost typing is also going to give it immunity to Normal and Fighting.

Who knows where Rowlet and its evolution will fit in the Sun/Moon metagame, but just as something on paper, it looks like something that makes sense and is balanced out.

It's the same reason why I feel Delphox's Fire/Psychic typing is just weird. It does nothing to address the issues Delphox has as a Fire Starter.

Unlike say Swampert and his Ground typing which helps make immunity to his water's electric weakness, or Torterra's ground which allows for neutralization of Fire.
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Buuberries
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No

Tl;Dr you don't savvy and apparently I don't eithereally cuz you're going off tangent about diff shizzle
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Popcorn

Clearin
Oct 28 2016, 01:30 PM
Especially since the discussion was specifically about them in a starter context, and you don't get hidden ability pokés as starters. Serperior was a pretty bad Poké in-game due to its shallow movepool.
Context is starters not just starting abilities or starting moves or stuff from that gen only ect..

Blazekin/geninja
Serperior

Period

Can't just say some thing is trash IF you take away this ablity or these moves ect... take everything into account and use its full potential and then see how it is.
Edited by Havoc_Wreaker, Oct 28 2016, 10:22 PM.
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+ Clearin
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Havoc_Wreaker
Oct 28 2016, 10:21 PM
Clearin
Oct 28 2016, 01:30 PM
Especially since the discussion was specifically about them in a starter context, and you don't get hidden ability pokés as starters. Serperior was a pretty bad Poké in-game due to its shallow movepool.
Context is starters not just starting abilities or starting moves or stuff from that gen only ect..
In competitive there's no real difference between a starter and any other Pokémon though. Discussing them as starters only really matters when they're used as, well, starters.
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Popcorn

When you say a certain starter pokemon isn't good, it means it isn't good and your limiting yourself. Nothing was said about only talking about it in a limiting way lmao.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I kept referring to "Contrary Serperior" as a very good Pokemon. I feel like I should actually take that back.

Contrary+Leafstorm is a good combination. Increasing your special attack +2 each turn with a massively power move is an awesome thing to have.

But you know what doesn't change? The fact that Serperior, Contrary ability or not, is an overall awful Pokemon, terrible stats, terrible offensive capability and terrible+limited moveset with utterly nothing to help its own issues as a monotype Grass Pokemon.

In the end, Contrary Serperior isn't a good Pokemon, Contrary+Leaf Storm is a good combination. Fortunately or unfortunately it happens to be too damn good. So it helps bring an awful pokemon up, regardless of its poor stats and moveset in general.

Give Meganium Contrary+Leaf Storm. You'd have a very crappy Pokemon in almost all senses probably rising up several levels in the same way that Serperior has.

it is literally a bad pokemon...with a good move.
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Popcorn

If you say so but having sub/leech seed with hp fire/ice, leaf storm + another move can absolutely sweep teams for take out a good chunk. Serperior is a good pokemon if you know what your doing.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

See, I don't know where the issue comes?

Most people admit that Serperior has a very shallow and limited moveset. Beyond Contrary Leaf storm, it's incredibly poor offensively. It's lack of any proper resistance to its already weak grass monotyping is only hurting it more. It is a Pokemon, lacking in so many regards and it's only because of a single hidden ability and a movie, not Serperior's status or anything else that it got where it is now.

It's the equivalent of playing Smash Bros and having Pichu's forward smash instantly KO. At this point, it doesn't matter how bad Pichu is at everything else. It doesn't matter that Pichu is an awful character in Smash in nearly every way. Give it practically a broken move and it will jump the tier list immediately. Nobody is going to say Pich is a good character. They're going to say he's a bad character with a good move.

That is exactly what Serperior is now. He is a bad, or at best very flawed Pokemon....with a very good move.

That is pretty much what Contrary+Leaf Storm is.

It is a great, massively useful combination. A combination that is so good that it greatly alleviates the often fatal flaws Serpeiror has. These flaws themselves are not addressed. It's just that, Contrary+Leaf Storm is such a powerful force that all those incredible flaws Serperioer has, get overshadowed by a 130+ Attack stat getting +2 each turn. It's like, the advantage of Contrary+Leaf Storm help to greatly outweigh the troubles Serperioer faces normally.

Serperior is the equivalent of a huge dump, where someone has put a million dollars in the center. You have this golden opportunity that is Contrary+Leaf Storm, surrounded by all this junk that is the huge flaws Serperior has. One is far more willing to stick their hands into that mess because the reward is far greater.
Edited by EMIYA, Oct 29 2016, 04:41 AM.
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孫悟空

Just saw that Red and Blue image today. Pretty awesome that they're going to be in the game.
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Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Popcorn

A paragraph of nothingness. Some pokemon are shallow or one trick ponies but that doesnt make them bad, tiers arent everything but serperior lives up his. I dont think you have used him or been against him. You seem to be reading comments online or faqs about him. Hes legit as any pokemon in OU. There is more to serperior then just one combo, the fact that you dont even know that tells me all i need to know for someone who claims to know so much about him.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Then what does it have? take away Contrary or Leaf Storm and what does Serperior have? What does it have that will still help it remain in the OU metagame. You act like I don't understand that Serpeior has moves beyond "Leaf Storm" but I do, it's just that, these moves did not boost Serperior past 3 tier list into the OU. Contrary+Leaf storm did and without it, Serperior would be nowhere near where it is today.

It's a far bigger testament to Contrary+Leaf Storm that helped pushed Serperior into the OU tier list without actually having to address most of Serperior's flaws, than what is says for Serperior as a Pokemon overall. This goes straight back to my previous comparison with Pichu above. It doesn't matter how bad you are in everything else.

Take away Contrary or Leaf storm, literally take one single move or ability away and what do you think is going to happen to Serperior? Do you think it's going to be in OU? do you think it's going to be in Borderline or UU? Do you think it's going to be in RU?

It was because of contrary+Leafstorm that BW Serperior was considered for OU. The fact that without it, Serperior is a joke is only a testament to the capabilities of Contrary than for Seperior itself.

If you want to call Serperior a good Pokemon because it's in OU due to an overpowered attack, that's fine. I won't, I will gladly acknowledge Contrary+Leaf Storm as a huge threat and its great capabilities of +2 a 130 base attack stat each turn. But I see no reason to give Serperior as a Pokemon overall that same recognition when it has literally done nothing to warrant its placing beyond that combination.

And I would say that to any Pokemon.

If Mewtwo had average stats, poor typing and a shallow moveset...but you give him something that increases an attack stat of 130 +2 each turn and that's what's putting him in the OU list.

I'd say you have a crappy Pokemon with a very good combination move?

I mean, that's what it is? It's not like Serperior's boasting anything great beyond speed when it comes to its overall stat frame. Are you going to tell me that even without Contrary, Serperior would still be in OU or even something like BL or UU? If so, I'd loved to hear how.

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