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Gotenks is overrated
Topic Started: Feb 10 2016, 11:23 AM (4,207 Views)
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SSj4 Gotenks
Feb 11 2016, 12:22 AM
-snip-
Piccolo misread Boo, not Gotenks. Boo is the one stated to have a smokescreen over his power level, but Gotenks can be sensed just fine.
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Quote:
 
These scans will show Trunks thinking base Gotenks is close to Fat Buu as he stated they can fight him till a standstill and Trunks outright stated they are equal.

Both Trunks and Piccolo were talking about SUPER Boo, not Fat Boo. Why would they be referring to beating a version of Boo that no longer exists?
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Clearin
Feb 11 2016, 01:27 AM
Quote:
 
These scans will show Trunks thinking base Gotenks is close to Fat Buu as he stated they can fight him till a standstill and Trunks outright stated they are equal.

Both Trunks and Piccolo were talking about SUPER Boo, not Fat Boo. Why would they be referring to beating a version of Boo that no longer exists?
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From right to left, Goten was saying he never knew their was a power higher than super saiyan, if they change to that(assuming hie referring to Gotenks ssj3) they could defeat Buu immediately, but Trunks refuses and suggests that he thinks base Gotenks is as strong as Buu and they were to drag the fight until the last 5 minutes and then turn into Ssj3 for the win.

@Clearin

If Trunks were talking about Evil Buu as he was explaining it Goten, how would Trunks know base Gotenks is equal to Evil Buu? The only time the boys saw Evil Buu was at the watch tower were he Buu stepped on Chichi.

With Piccolo, I said Piccolo had confidence in Gotenks might having a chance to beat Evil Buu as he saw them perform fusion perfectly and saw the results the boys achieved through training. But as in the same panel, Piccolo also then questioned Gotenks chances against Evil Buu as he saw Gotenks done absolutely no damage to him.
Edited by Zoom, Feb 11 2016, 01:46 AM.
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Yeah, he misjudged Boo's power.
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SSj4 Gotenks
Feb 11 2016, 01:44 AM
If Trunks were talking about Evil Buu as he was explaining it Goten, how would Trunks know base Gotenks is equal to Evil Buu? The only time the boys saw Evil Buu was at the watch tower were he Buu stepped on Chichi.
Trunks and Piccolo were both basing their judgement on the power that Boo was showing off during that instance. It just tuned out that Boo had much more power hidden.

He can't be talking about Fat Boo when Fat Boo no longer exists, and Trunks already knows that Super Boo is stronger than Fat Boo.
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Clearin
Feb 11 2016, 02:38 AM
SSj4 Gotenks
Feb 11 2016, 01:44 AM
If Trunks were talking about Evil Buu as he was explaining it Goten, how would Trunks know base Gotenks is equal to Evil Buu? The only time the boys saw Evil Buu was at the watch tower were he Buu stepped on Chichi.
Trunks and Piccolo were both basing their judgement on the power that Boo was showing off during that instance. It just tuned out that Boo had much more power hidden.

He can't be talking about Fat Boo when Fat Boo no longer exists, and Trunks already knows that Super Boo is stronger than Fat Boo.
Sorry, in what instance? At the watch tower or inside the rosat?
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SSj4 Gotenks
Feb 11 2016, 02:41 AM
Clearin
Feb 11 2016, 02:38 AM
SSj4 Gotenks
Feb 11 2016, 01:44 AM
If Trunks were talking about Evil Buu as he was explaining it Goten, how would Trunks know base Gotenks is equal to Evil Buu? The only time the boys saw Evil Buu was at the watch tower were he Buu stepped on Chichi.
Trunks and Piccolo were both basing their judgement on the power that Boo was showing off during that instance. It just tuned out that Boo had much more power hidden.

He can't be talking about Fat Boo when Fat Boo no longer exists, and Trunks already knows that Super Boo is stronger than Fat Boo.
Sorry, in what instance? At the watch tower or inside the rosat?
Well I don't think there's a difference between the two, Boo remained the same power until he needed to power up to get stronger than Gotenks imo. But for Trunks it'd be at the watch tower, for Piccolo it'd be inside the RoSaT.
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Saberoph
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Is the argument still on whether or not Post Base Gotenks>Pre SSJ Gotenks is true or not? Because after all of those scans, I fail to see how any of that debunks what we're given.

All Post Base Gotenks has to be is above Initial Super Boo, who is clearly above Pre SSJ Gotenks...it's really not that hard, just drop the bias for a moment, don't use your opinion and look at the facts objectively. Is it really that hard to do?

Like I've said many times and I will keep saying...at the end of the day and whether you like it or not, we have this.

Facts>Opinions.
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Saberoph
Feb 11 2016, 04:29 AM
Is the argument still on whether or not Post Base Gotenks>Pre SSJ Gotenks is true or not? Because after all of those scans, I fail to see how any of that debunks what we're given.

All Post Base Gotenks has to be is above Initial Super Boo, who is clearly above Pre SSJ Gotenks...it's really not that hard, just drop the bias for a moment, don't use your opinion and look at the facts objectively. Is it really that hard to do?

Like I've said many times and I will keep saying...at the end of the day and whether you like it or not, we have this.

Facts>Opinions.


You should take your own advice, the funny thing is as i've stated from the first post i have;

Gotenks pre-rosat > Ssj3 Goku > Fat
Gotenks post-rosat > Gotenks pre, just don't think Gotenks is millions of times stronger or 100.000 times stronger.

I can say the exact same thing "it's not that hard to understand"

Gotenks pre thought he can deal with Fat Buu in his base form, when he came back his eyes were swollen= that's fact!
Trunks thought base Gotenks can equal Buu (most likely Fat but if you think it's Evil Buu), it doesn't change the FACT that Gotenks post was beaten up easily. Gotenks post Ssj1 was still no match as shown in scans = FACTS.

Piccolo after witnessing base Gotenks post got beaten so badly doubted he could win against Evil Buu. That's fact.

So what do you have to show me? Piccolo saying the boys have a chance.... and you're criticizing me for using opinions. :w00t:


Quote:
 
Well I don't think there's a difference between the two, Boo remained the same power until he needed to power up to get stronger than Gotenks imo. But for Trunks it'd be at the watch tower, for Piccolo it'd be inside the RoSaT.


Are you saying the boys sensed him them in the moment where Buu stepped on Chichi? If that's what you believe then that's your opinion, as it was already shown either way;

Evil Buu > Ssj1 Gotenks post > base Gotenks post.
Base Gotenks post most likely > Ssj1 Gotenks pre.
Edited by Zoom, Feb 11 2016, 05:32 AM.
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Saberoph
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I never said Post Base Gotenks has to be an insane amount stronger than his Pre SSJ self, but he does at least need to be higher than that.

I'm criticizing and venting from the constant "Well, I don't like Gotenks, so I can ignore un-contradicted statements about him."

Not really directing that towards you, but after four different Threads of it over the past couple weeks, that kind of bias way of thinking doesn't prove anything and just ends up getting on everyone's nerves.

As for Pre SSJ Gotenks and Post Base Gotenks, I don't have a huge gap comparing the too or even comparing to SSJ3 Kakarrot, this is pretty much what I go by.


Fat Boo: 285.
SSJ3 Kakarrot: 310.
Pre SSj Gotenks: 350.
Post Base Gotenks: 400.


It's at least a decent size gap, but it's not too crazy of a gap either.
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I still don't see what the issue is. Piccolo (and the boys) misjudged Boo's power. That's why they thought base Gotenks may have had a chance against Boo, when in reality Boo was capable of a lot more.

Boo (full power) >>>>>>>> Boo (on Lookout) ~ base Gotenks (post) >>> SS Gotenks (pre)
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Boo's ki is like a lie.

Vegeta: “Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?”

Then Vegeta is promptly shut down. Same principle applies here; whatever Piccolo/Vegeta feel from Boo, it's not his whole power. What Piccolo feels from Boo is a power greater than SSJ Gotenks's.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

The whole thing with Gotenks is no different than Perfect Cell and Vegeta.

No. 16, based on his own readings outright stated that despite the fact that Cell's power had greatly increased, Super Vegeta was still better in every way. And without Cell making a single noted power up, he goes and kicks Vegeta's a*** and tanks kicks to the face. Do we say No. 16 is an idiot and shouldn't be taken seriously?

And you can do the same thing with Gero.

Gero sees SSJ Goku transform and based on his readings, that Goku still isn't a match for them. Goku charges in and starts wailing on No. 19 with basic ease. Does this again mean we have to say Gero is a dumbass who shouldn't be taken seriously?

As usual...of course not.

And you can name multiple points. You can name the point where Vegeta thought he was going to take on Final Form Freeza. There has always been the time when a character's power has been underestimated by another. It's like...what do you people want? The only way Base Gotenks>SSJ Gotenks (Pre) could be any more obvious is if Toriyama just made a separate page saying:

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"Dear Dumbass Readers, Yes...I wanted Gotenks, the fusion of Goten and Trunks to surpass his Supa-Saiya-jin Transformation after going into the Room of Spirit and Time only in his base form. I wanted to give the fact that Gotenks had made huge gains in such a short time and that these gains would be noted. I wanted to brig up the point that despite how strong Gotenks had gotten, Boo, who is a f***ing mystery of strange proportions,is still much stronger."

With Much Love...

-Da Mangaka...

PS...get a clue you morons.


It might sound mean spirited, but there's nothing more annoying than having to shove the damn facts straight in the person's face, with absolutely no contradiction whatsoever...and they still don't get it.
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Dark Matter
Feb 11 2016, 06:51 AM
The only way Base Gotenks>SSJ Gotenks (Pre) could be any more obvious is if Toriyama just made a separate page saying:

Quote:
 
"Dear Dumbass Readers, Yes...I wanted Gotenks, the fusion of Goten and Trunks to surpass his Supa-Saiya-jin Transformation after going into the Room of Spirit and Time only in his base form. I wanted to give the fact that Gotenks had made huge gains in such a short time and that these gains would be noted. I wanted to brig up the point that despite how strong Gotenks had gotten, Boo, who is a f***ing mystery of strange proportions,is still much stronger."

With Much Love...

-Da Mangaka...

PS...get a clue you morons.
I must object. Going by this fan-made rule of "true unless contradicted"—which we have no reason to believe Toriyama was writing with such a rule in mind—then, yes, Gotenks ends up absurdly more powerful than Goku. But to say Toriyama wanted things to get so bloated is, not only just your opinion, as you're not Toriyama, but it also seems counter to the opinion expressed consistently after this.

The man has stated previously that he thinks a 50X Super Saiyan multiplier is excessive, for a start. What must he think if he realised how people were adding up Gotenks' strength? I don't imagine it would be a nod of approval. Secondly, Daizenshuu 7 has this to say of Gotenks' strength:
Quote:
 
The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others.
Of which, I've been lead to believe Toriyama has knowledge of what went in to these things. And, finally, Battle of Gods and Super, with Toriyama supposedly writing the wretched things, both seem to treat Gotenks and Gohan as being in the same area of power as Goku, with no excessive gap noted to be between them.

Perhaps the gap was such that Goku had already surpassed them?

I'm not arguing what the manga expresses, and I'm not saying any of this additional content is more canon than the source—or even canon at all—but I do think that to suggest Toriyama himself definitely wanted Gotenks to become inanely more powerful than Goku, is not only you inappropriately stating your opinion of his thoughts as fact, but it strikes me as going against everything we have that may indicate his opinion on the matter.

P.S. Base Gotenks genuinely has one of my favourite designs in the entire series, and as such I actually quite like him. I'm not trying to downplay him through any bias, and him being superior to Goku is an undeniable fact, but I just think his bragging and Piccolo's reaction to his power was intended to be a gag, more than anything else. A gag with, probably unintended, power implications.
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