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Reason why Goku got so strong at EoZ; Just manga explanation
Topic Started: Feb 9 2016, 11:40 AM (1,704 Views)
ekrolo2
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Saberoph
Feb 9 2016, 06:02 PM
That's where I'm against you. The Namek just has to compare Pre SSJ Gotenks to Post Base Gotenks and it works, especially he was worried about them Fusing in Base.
And again, I have to mention that wouldn't work or else Super Saiyan Gotenks would've been able to kill Super Boo Vegetto style. It's a lot easier for me to accept Super Boo's just f***ing around in the ROSAT and not showing his true power. I mean, he reads a magazine and eats ice cream while Gotenks is making the ghost army.
Edited by ekrolo2, Feb 9 2016, 06:04 PM.
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Slifer
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ekrolo2
Feb 9 2016, 06:04 PM
Saberoph
Feb 9 2016, 06:02 PM
That's where I'm against you. The Namek just has to compare Pre SSJ Gotenks to Post Base Gotenks and it works, especially he was worried about them Fusing in Base.
And again, I have to mention that wouldn't work or else Super Saiyan Gotenks would've been able to kill Super Boo Vegetto style. It's a lot easier for me to accept Super Boo's just f***ing around in the ROSAT and not showing his true power. I mean, he reads a magazine and eats ice cream while Gotenks is making the ghost army.
Boo screwing around doesn't have anything to do with Piccolo's initial reaction to Base Gotenks. It just means Boo is that much stronger.
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ekrolo2
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Mr. Hashbrowns
Feb 9 2016, 06:06 PM
ekrolo2
Feb 9 2016, 06:04 PM
Saberoph
Feb 9 2016, 06:02 PM
That's where I'm against you. The Namek just has to compare Pre SSJ Gotenks to Post Base Gotenks and it works, especially he was worried about them Fusing in Base.
And again, I have to mention that wouldn't work or else Super Saiyan Gotenks would've been able to kill Super Boo Vegetto style. It's a lot easier for me to accept Super Boo's just f***ing around in the ROSAT and not showing his true power. I mean, he reads a magazine and eats ice cream while Gotenks is making the ghost army.
Boo screwing around doesn't have anything to do with Piccolo's initial reaction to Base Gotenks. It just means Boo is that much stronger.
It actually does, Boo screwing around and not using anywhere near his maximum power makes his statement work. If base Gotenks is TRULY near Super Boo's strength level, then he would've destroyed him as a Super Saiyan with little effort Vegetto style. There would be no need for him to use SSJ3 to win.
Edited by ekrolo2, Feb 9 2016, 06:08 PM.
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Saberoph
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But it's not about how you want to see it, it's about what's presented to us and the fact that Post Base Gotenks>Pre SSJ Gotenks is never contradicted.

We've been over this before...I don't like Post Zeta Sword Gohan being in the ballpark of Fat Boo, or Post Base Gotenks surpassing his Pre SSJ self, or Vegetto being so powerful, but that's what we're given and none of those are contradicted.

If I followed what I wanted, then it becomes a bias opinion, but then it's no longer a valid one because it goes against what we're given.
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ekrolo2
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Saberoph
Feb 9 2016, 06:08 PM
But it's not about how you want to see it, it's about what's presented to us and the fact that Post Base Gotenks>Pre SSJ Gotenks is never contradicted.

We've been over this before...I don't like Post Zeta Sword Gohan being in the ballpark of Fat Boo, or Post Base Gotenks surpassing his Pre SSJ self, or Vegetto being so powerful, but that's what we're given and none of those are contradicted.

If I followed what I wanted, then it becomes a bias opinion, but then it's no longer a valid one because it goes against what we're given.
Base Gotenks (if Piccolo's statement is 100% concrete fact): 300

Super Boo: 320

Base Gotenks + Super Saiyan vs Super Boo = f***ed Super Boo.

This does not happen. The story itself does not support Gotenks' base being that strong, it directly contradicts it by having him not murder Super Boo Vegetto style upon using SSJ. Whether he's stronger than his SSJ self is irrelevant, what I'm talking about is Piccolo thinking Base Gotenks has a chance at beating Super Boo at his best. He cannot, he doesn't, he needs to use SSJ3 to do it. Piccolo is proven flat. out. wrong by the story directly going against what he's talking about.



Edited by ekrolo2, Feb 9 2016, 06:13 PM.
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ekrolo2
Feb 9 2016, 06:08 PM
Mr. Hashbrowns
Feb 9 2016, 06:06 PM
ekrolo2
Feb 9 2016, 06:04 PM
Saberoph
Feb 9 2016, 06:02 PM
That's where I'm against you. The Namek just has to compare Pre SSJ Gotenks to Post Base Gotenks and it works, especially he was worried about them Fusing in Base.
And again, I have to mention that wouldn't work or else Super Saiyan Gotenks would've been able to kill Super Boo Vegetto style. It's a lot easier for me to accept Super Boo's just f***ing around in the ROSAT and not showing his true power. I mean, he reads a magazine and eats ice cream while Gotenks is making the ghost army.
Boo screwing around doesn't have anything to do with Piccolo's initial reaction to Base Gotenks. It just means Boo is that much stronger.
It actually does, Boo screwing around and not using anywhere near his maximum power makes his statement work. If base Gotenks is TRULY near Super Boo's strength level, then he would've destroyed him as a Super Saiyan with little effort Vegetto style. There would be no need for him to use SSJ3 to win.
You're not getting what I'm saying.

Piccolo goes from "Gotenks is screwed" when Super Boo initially powers up to "Holy lord he might actually have a chance" when Gotenks formed in Base. At the time Piccolo didn't knew he could transform after fusing.

That suggests Base Gotenks post > SSJ Gotenks pre. Super Boo's goofing around has no impact on that whatsoever.
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Xfing
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Saberoph
Feb 9 2016, 05:36 PM
Xfing
Feb 9 2016, 11:53 AM
The SSj multiplier from the Buu arc onwards isn't 50x, simple as that.
The Kili argument is easily debunked, when you actually look at the mechanics of SSJ from the Cell Games and on, and how Vegeta doesn't react until Kakarrot puts out more power after he Transforms the second time.


As for EoZ, I never thought it made sense for Kakarrot to be so powerful. Even if I consider BoG and RoF, but then again I don't consider them to be canon.
The Kili scale isn't the only base for this argument - actually Post RoSaT Gotenks being stronger in base than Pre Gotenks was in SSj is a much stronger point for that case. Over 50x creates lots of complications in this situation.
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Saberoph
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@ekrolo2: But the fact that Post Base Gotenks>Pre SSJ Gotenks is not contradicted in any way. All it shows is despite his impressive increases, he's still nothing compared to Super Boo without SSJ3.

@Xfing: That doesn't prove the SSJ Multiplier decreases. It just proves that SSJ Gotenks still isn't enough, despite his Base surpassing his previous SSJ. Also, the fact that Goten and Trunks also have the ability to power up after Transforming works against the lowering SSJ Multiplier argument.
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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+ Emmeth
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I Yoeri

Why? Because it was convenient.
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...

eoz is totally different to fnf and super, you cant use super to prove anything in eoz.


Besides, since when EoZ goku that strong?

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Saberoph
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Emmeth
Feb 9 2016, 06:41 PM
Why? Because it was convenient.
Because it's not contradicted.

It doesn't matter what we believe, at the end of the day we have this whether we like it or not.

Facts>Opinions.

Like I said earlier, I think it's stupid Gohan and Gotenks made those kind of increases, but it's what we're given and neither of them are contradicted.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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Xfing
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Saberoph
Feb 9 2016, 06:31 PM
@Xfing: That doesn't prove the SSJ Multiplier decreases. It just proves that SSJ Gotenks still isn't enough, despite his Base surpassing his previous SSJ. Also, the fact that Goten and Trunks also have the ability to power up after Transforming works against the lowering SSJ Multiplier argument.
It doesn't prove it, but implies it. Stop being a judger, start being a perceiver. Also, Goten and Trunks being able to modify their powerlevels has no relation to this particular question at all - this has been an ability of Super Saiyans ever since the Cell Games. But just as well it could mean they went from 2x base to 5x base. Powering up all the same.
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Saberoph
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Actually it does, because the Kili at first gives off the appearance that the SSJ Multiplier isn't as large, but after Kakarrot Transforms again he increases his power higher than it was before...the same thing Goten and Trunks can do. The fact that all SSJ can power up from the Cell Games on shows they can stay suppressed in that state and later power up, which gives off the impression that Multiplier isn't as large, but when they power up it shows otherwise.

All I'm doing is showing what isn't contradicted...not trying to explain away things and try to get around them.

As for the Post ROSAT SSJ Gotenks. His Base being higher than his Pre SSJ self doesn't suggest the Multiplier lowered, all it suggest is his Post Base surpassed his Pre SSj...not one line is presented that proves or implies his SSj Multiplier is any lower than it was prior to the Boo arc.


Look, it may sound like I'm trying to push what I want...that's far from it. My point is Post Base Gotenks>Pre SSJ Gotenks is never contradicted, so that's what we have instead of trying to either explain it away or try getting around it.


This is what I would've wanted from the Boo arc compared to what we got...

Gohan going back in the ROSAT with maybe even with the Zeta Sword, so pretty much Gohan training with a heavy sword for a year...making only a little above his Post Zeta self, which has his increases making sense. The same with Goten and Trunks in the ROSAT...give them a whole day together, then Gotenks' increase makes more sense too...not one stupid week, that makes absolutely no sense at all.
Edited by Saberoph, Feb 9 2016, 09:23 PM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

People, I can't believe we're still going through this debate with the whole Base Gotenks thing. It literally went like this:

Super Boo came in and Piccolo, who has personally felt SSj Gotenks' power, made it painfully clear that he stood no chance, sent him to the ROSAT and afterwards was hoping for a miracle. When Base Gotenks (whom Piccolo is even initially surprised the kids don't start off as Super Saiyans) is amazed at Base Gotenks' power and believes he may actually stand a chance against Boo.

Just because is proven wrong about Gotenks' ability to defeat Boo in base does not negate his stunned thoughts at the fact that Base Gotenks is so strong i the first place. The implication that Base Gotenks is still stronger than his Pre-SSJ self still stands. It's not a a domino effect where one point proven wrong somehow ends up proving all other points wrong.

You know, you don't say Cui wasn't once Vegeta's rival because he was wrong in his assessment in thinking he'd be able to defeat Vegeta on Namek. One wrong point does not equal all points wrong. Plus on the matter of Boo, there are times when a person's initial strength seemed dull and then without a single power up, ended up kicking the crap out of their opponent. Super Vegeta vs Perfect Cell is the great point on that. Not to mention that its referenced multiple times that Boo's ki is a lie and that's hard to read at points.

If you guys want to use a smaller amp or something, go ahead. The manga actually seems to imply that the SSJ amplifications have dropped and if you remember, even Toriyama initally believed the SSj amp was going to be 10x instead of the 50x it was used on Namek. But don't try to mince the actual words and implications given in the story for your own benefit.

Cause its this same thing that plagues the whole Gogeta argument. There's a lot of points that helps to put Gogeta in a certain spot, even if its at a minimum value. But instead of taking those points into consideration, that, much like the Gotenks debate has boiled down to...

"I don't like where this character stands, so instead of using the information that is given to us to make the best interpretation, I'm instead going to put them wherever I like..."

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Saberoph
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I agree with all of it but the lowering SSJ Multiplier, but I'm not going to beat you over the head with it...besides I think you and I would probably come to a stand still if we went back and forth.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
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