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A character vs...; For when you can't come up with a good match!
Topic Started: Feb 3 2016, 01:52 PM (5,736 Views)
Tinny
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I've noticed a few of these popping up here and there, so I've decided to create a general thread for when people cannot figure out who is a good match against who. When someone can't think of anyone, they can post it here, and someone could bring up an opponent or a selection of opponents for them to fight. You should also poetically specify what kind of match you want, if you're just looking for someone thematically appropriate to fight in an equal stats, or if you're searching for someone roughly equal in feats, or if what you have in mind is completely different (like a race instead of a fight). It's also recommended to bring up their general abilities or a respect thread so that you have the best chance of finding an opponent for your character.
Note: The idea behind this is that it leads to another thread being created rather than hosting the debate here (so that multiple people can bring up characters at the same time without them being lost in the shuffle of a debate), to clarify in case someone wonders if they should debate here or not.
Edited by Tinny, Feb 4 2016, 12:43 AM.
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Darker
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Hulkbuster is weaker than the thorbuster. If the hulkbuster is excluded, then why should we allow a stronger armor ? that's illogical.


...Because a stronger armor would be more fun? It's also the better of the two.

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Hypersonic iirc.

Gray is massively hypersonic. So I think he wins in the speed department.


?

I don't see that stated anywhere. And please don't tell me you're using vsbattles as an example.

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Er... That one would probably win due to toonforce.


Alright, what about 90's spidey ?


Sligthly behind how he is in the comics, same as most cartoon versions of Spidey in the sense that they're close to the level he is in the comics, but not quite, given the difference in how many feats each version has.

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Dude, isn't there's a quote that says no one stays dead(except Uncle ben) in comics ?


And you believe a quote that is meant to be a joke?

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However, if how a character was killed changes, that is a retcon.


That's something Marvel is JUST NOW doing because their current writers are total garbage.

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Marvel did it with the beyonder, no?


They depowered THE Beyonder because he was way too powerful for his own right. There are still OTHER Beyonders who are among the most powerful comic book characters period.

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It's still kinda is a retcon. A retcon evolves changing something established in the past.
and with 10000+ comics, there's bound to be retcons unexplained. I know you're very knowledgeable in comics, but surely you didn't read more than 10000 comics.


I've read hundreds of issues from tons of series, events, tie-ins, etc, but I'd like to say there aren't over 10000 comics out there lol
That's an absurd amount. There are thousands, yes

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It's funny how you posted Captain America, especially with the whole "Hail Hydra" Controversy. Was that explained or what ?


Yes, mind control.

And it's happened before.

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1.I don't need to read the whole comic just to know how the hotu works. I just need to see it's specification limits and stuff.


But you do, the same way you need to read a couple of Spider-Man or Superman comics to get a good idea of how their abilities work.

Otherwise, what, are you going to use the wiki? That one is very unfinished and has many mistakes.

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2.It's common knowledge that comics tend to retcon themselves, I mean look:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Retcon/ComicBooks
How do you explain that ? And I'm pretty sure it's only a small list.


sigh

Realize how TVTropes plays these for jokes, and don't bother to explain the clear reasonings given for the retcons and how most didn't affect much, if at all. It's a bad example, and a terrible link, same as many other TVTropes pages. Half of them kinda look like they've been written by children that should double-check their sources.

True retcons are the ones that are never explained well, those are the worst ones, such as The Mask, in how Big Head got way more cartoony and less violent just because of the movie. No in-universe explanation there.

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Luffy is far, and I mean FAR more consistent then either Hulk or Iron Man.


I don't understand how you can compare Luffy with those two. The stretchy guy trains. Hulk is a mutant with unlimited rage, the other is a guy with near limitless armors which differ in power. Iron Man is so far the least inconsistent character mentioned here.

Edit: I may continue this later. I have to go now.
Edited by Darker, Jul 30 2017, 07:32 PM.
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Never mind I couldn't find a statement on what Jellal's speed was comparable to realistic wise. There might not be anything.
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...Because a stronger armor would be more fun? It's also the better of the two.

Even more reasons. Just admit that you've made a mistake.
Hulkbuster is excluded, means that armor of a similar caliber or stronger are also excluded. I may have poorly worded it but still.
Logically, If Iron man wins easily with the hulkbuster and it had to be excluded, would we really allow an armor stronger ?

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?

I don't see that stated anywhere. And please don't tell me you're using vsbattles as an example.


1.What's wrong with VSBattles ?
2.I've proved that he is massively hypersonic, because he is equal to a guy who was able to dodge lightning rays. Just because it wasn't stated or made by the character himself doesn't necessarily mean he isn't able to do it. It's called Power-scaling, man.

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And you believe a quote that is meant to be a joke?

It is as much of a joke as it is true. Sorry.

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That's something Marvel is JUST NOW doing because their current writers are total garbage.


Ah-ha! See what I mean?
You even admit it yourself. Comics are inconsistent by your own mouth.

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They depowered THE Beyonder because he was way too powerful for his own right. There are still OTHER Beyonders who are among the most powerful comic book characters period.


It still counts as a retcon. So...

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I've read hundreds of issues from tons of series, events, tie-ins, etc, but I'd like to say there aren't over 10000 comics out there lol
That's an absurd amount. There are thousands, yes


No, No, there are more than 10000. 32,000 exactly. at least that's what The Official Index To The Marvel Universe says.
So more than 32,000 :blush:
And keep in mind that these 32,000 are only from marvel.

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Yes, mind control.

And it's happened before.


Alright, fair enough.
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But you do, the same way you need to read a couple of Spider-Man or Superman comics to get a good idea of how their abilities work.

Otherwise, what, are you going to use the wiki? That one is very unfinished and has many mistakes.


Not comparable. Spidey and Supes have like hundreds, maybe thousands of comics. The Hotu appeared for like what ? an issue ? 5 at most ?

Quote:
 
sigh

Realize how TVTropes plays these for jokes, and don't bother to explain the clear reasonings given for the retcons and how most didn't affect much, if at all. It's a bad example, and a terrible link, same as many other TVTropes pages. Half of them kinda look like they've been written by children that should double-check their sources.

True retcons are the ones that are never explained well, those are the worst ones, such as The Mask, in how Big Head got way more cartoony and less violent just because of the movie. No in-universe explanation there.


Alright, then how about these:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/retcon/4015-43566/
http://www.cbr.com/the-15-best-comic-book-retcons-of-all-time/
Are you gonna disregard these links too ? Is your personal opinion really above the researches of multiple peoples?

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I don't understand how you can compare Luffy with those two. The stretchy guy trains. Hulk is a mutant with unlimited rage, the other is a guy with near limitless armors which differ in power. Iron Man is so far the least inconsistent character mentioned here.

Luffy is far more consistent in strength than those two.
ok let's take for example...Thanos. Strong, stronger than the silver surfer.....What's that ? He got beaten by Squirrel girl who is street tier ?
See, isn't that ridiculous ? I never saw that happen on DBZ or One Piece.


Dude, just admit that Comic books can be inconsistent. I've linked you 3 links, and you refuted without even debunking.
When something is written by multiple writers, it has to be inconsistent with the rest.
Edited by Notaka, Jul 30 2017, 08:00 PM.
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Darker
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Hulkbuster is excluded, means that armor of a similar caliber or stronger are also excluded. I may have poorly worded it but still.
Logically, If Iron man wins easily with the hulkbuster and it had to be excluded, would we really allow an armor stronger ?


But why would it be excluded? The Hulkbuster is rather sluggish, it could potentially be beaten much easier by Grey than most other speedy armors. The Thorbuster would put up a fight, unlike the Hulkbuster.

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1.What's wrong with VSBattles ?


That they constantly make mistakes.
When it comes to battle boards, they are easily the worst source.

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2.I've proved that he is massively hypersonic,


...You didn't show me a single scan.

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because he is equal to a guy who was able to dodge lightning rays.


Something you never said.

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Just because it wasn't stated or made by the character himself doesn't necessarily mean he isn't able to do it. It's called Power-scaling, man.


I like how you're telling me this knowing I'm more than knowledgeable on the matter.

What's next, are you going to tell me how the HOTU works?

Quote:
 
It is as much of a joke as it is true. Sorry.


There is one reason I asked about Fairy Tail characters. Because I haven't read or watched that series.

You have clearly never read comics enough to say that, and you've proven this by asking multiple questions on the matter. So please stop this.

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Ah-ha! See what I mean?
You even admit it yourself. Comics are inconsistent by your own mouth.


And I said just now. Not back then. What's happening nowadays is something many fans ignore because things have been pretty awful ever since the early 2000s.

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Not comparable. Spidey and Supes have like hundreds, maybe thousands of comics. The Hotu appeared for like what ? an issue ? 5 at most ?


Notice how I said A COUPLE of issues. It's easy to get the powers from those two, they're not overly complicated.

Quote:
 
Alright, then how about these:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/retcon/4015-43566/
http://www.cbr.com/the-15-best-comic-book-retcons-of-all-time/
Are you gonna disregard these links too ? Is your personal opinion really above the researches of multiple peoples?


This just proves my point, and makes you look even more foolish by having not read those. All of those retcons are explained, none of them are left unanswered, and heck, some of these retcons come from ambiguous endings, making them half-retcons, and that's being generous.

Quote:
 
Luffy is far more consistent in strength than those two.
ok let's take for example...Thanos. Strong, stronger than the silver surfer.....What's that ? He got beaten by Squirrel girl who is street tier ?
See, isn't that ridiculous ? I never saw that happen on DBZ or One Piece.


Now you're just taking the piss lol

Squirrel Girl isn't a street level character. She's a joke character who cannot be beaten.

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Beating Thanos is NOTHING next to beating Galactus or Dormammu.

In One Piece and most anime or manga, it's very linear, it's just a stronger guy every time. Comic book heroes often face opponents who are not just superior in power, but just intellectual marvels. Just so you keep yourself informed.

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Dude, just admit that Comic books can be inconsistent.


I never denied it, but you exaggerated the concept to absurd proportions.

Of course there are retcons, you made it seem like these weren't a thing in most manga or anime, even though they are. Thing is, comic books have a much longer history and a much bigger team working on the projects. It's like comparing your average Disney movie with Astroboy or any Osamu Tezuka.

Inconsistencies are only clear with select characters more than anything (Captain America, Flash, or others who are either too powerful or too weak in certain stories).

Just because the Post-Crisis universe got retconned into the New 52 that doesn't make anything inconsistent, that's the point of a retcon, to rewrite stuff, and it hasn't been the first time it happened.

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I've linked you 3 links, and you refuted without even debunking.


...

You linked one.

I debunked it pretty easily, it's common knowledge TVTropes is more for banter than for actual info.

Then two. Just now, in your most recent post.

I couldn't have debunked those anywhere but in this reply. LOGICALLY I couldn't have debunked something you hadn't posted yet lol

Quote:
 
When something is written by multiple writers, it has to be inconsistent with the rest.


Except these are mostly good writers that respect their work and care about what they're doing because they either need for it to sell well or have been raised along with it. Remember comic books have been with us since the 30s, and people have been reading comics since forever, often becoming some of the best writers and artists in the community.
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Notaka
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But why would it be excluded? The Hulkbuster is rather sluggish, it could potentially be beaten much easier by Grey than most other speedy armors. The Thorbuster would put up a fight, unlike the Hulkbuster.


I excluded it because Gray is simply too outclassed by it. From it's name, I assume it's an armor made to fight the Hulk, right ?
So why would I exclude an armor that is too strong for the opponent, just to allow an armor even stronger ?
Where's the logic in that ?

Quote:
 
That they constantly make mistakes.
When it comes to battle boards, they are easily the worst source.


Fair enough, but everyone makes mistakes.
Besides, you're the only person I have seen that says VSbattles is bad. Haven't seen anyone else say the same.

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...You didn't show me a single scan.

The respect thread exists for that sole reason.

Quote:
 

Something you never said.


I did.
Here let me dig what I said for you:

"He's[Gray] comparable to Natsu who dodged Laxus' lighting rays. That was only when the series was in it's infancy."
That's the exact quote I said. Stop assuming I didn't say it.

Quote:
 
I like how you're telling me this knowing I'm more than knowledgeable on the matter.

What's next, are you going to tell me how the HOTU works?


Apparently you didn't. Even though I said he's comparable to a character who has shown feats of massively hypersonic speed, you still assume and state that he isn't.

No, I'm not gonna tell you how the HOTU works. You and I both acknowledge that you know it better than me. Don't be ridiculous.

Quote:
 
There is one reason I asked about Fairy Tail characters. Because I haven't read or watched that series.

You have clearly never read comics enough to say that, and you've proven this by asking multiple questions on the matter. So please stop this.


What's wrong with asking questions ? I'm just looking to expand my knowledge, is that so bad ?

Sorry if I might sound rude, but you're really acting on a condescending way.

Quote:
 
And I said just now. Not back then. What's happening nowadays is something many fans ignore because things have been pretty awful ever since the early 2000s.


"Now" still applies to my argument; Comic books being inconsistent. You're not even refuting my arguments, in fact you're admitting that they are inconsistent.

Quote:
 
Notice how I said A COUPLE of issues. It's easy to get the powers from those two, they're not overly complicated.


Right, but the problem poses is that when they demonstrate a strength feat, then proceeds to struggle with something less impressive.
That's what I'm talking about.

Quote:
 
This just proves my point, and makes you look even more foolish by having not read those. All of those retcons are explained, none of them are left unanswered, and heck, some of these retcons come from ambiguous endings, making them half-retcons, and that's being generous.


I think I see where the problem is: For you, if something that has changed a past information is explained, then it's not a retcon.
Unfortunately, that's not the case. A retcon is still a retcon, whether explained or not. Why do you think they put them on page titled retcon ?


Quote:
 
I never denied it, but you exaggerated the concept to absurd proportions.

Of course there are retcons, you made it seem like these weren't a thing in most manga or anime, even though they are. Thing is, comic books have a much longer history and a much bigger team working on the projects. It's like comparing your average Disney movie with Astroboy or any Osamu Tezuka.


What I said was that Comic books are inconsistent. It's not an exaggeration. In fact, you were the one exaggerating claiming that Comic books are consistent, which they are most of the times.

And no, you always have this problem of putting words in my mouth. I never said that there aren't retcons in anime. However, There are less retcon in anime and manga than in comic books, that's because Anime hasn't been around the time comic books were, and are generally more consistent than Comic Books.You're just proving my point further.

Quote:
 
...

You linked one.

I debunked it pretty easily, it's common knowledge TVTropes is more for banter than for actual info.

Then two. Just now, in your most recent post.

I couldn't have debunked those anywhere but in this reply. LOGICALLY I couldn't have debunked something you hadn't posted yet lol


"Tvtropes is a joke site" Not really a strong debunk.
You're also the single person I've seen that said that Tvtropes is for banter. While it's true, they do have a forum for it.
And while it isn't the most trust-worthy site that much I admit, it's still a solid source

Quote:
 
Except these are mostly good writers that respect their work and care about what they're doing because they either need for it to sell well or have been raised along with it. Remember comic books have been with us since the 30s, and people have been reading comics since forever, often becoming some of the best writers and artists in the community.


See, that's why retcons happens. It's a business move. It's not always the same generation that reads these comics.
A new generation comes in, and to appeal to that generation, Writers often have to alter characters' backstories, or abilities(such the case with Beyonder). Hence the term "Ret-Con" was coined. You believe that it isn't a ret con if it's explained, but that's false.
If they alter(or heck add information) the character's backstory a bit, Then it's a retcon, whether it's explained or not.


Let's just end this and say that every fiction piece gets retconned. and there isn't a single fiction piece that is always consistent.
We've gotten off-topic way too far.

Edited by Notaka, Jul 30 2017, 09:14 PM.
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Uh... just jumping in to say that according to VSBattles, Squall Leonhart is a galaxy buster.
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Notaka
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Well they don't say that he is Galaxy level.
It says that he's Planet level, possibly Galaxy level. and he's at galaxy level at his limit break.

Edited by Notaka, Jul 30 2017, 11:03 PM.
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Notaka
Jul 30 2017, 11:02 PM
Well they don't say that he is Galaxy level.
It says that he's Planet level, possibly Galaxy level. and he's at galaxy level at his limit break.

Planet Level is a bunch of bollocks as well. Squall gets pinned down by bullets. Unless those bullets have planet level force or even galaxy level force lmao.
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Jul 30 2017, 11:19 PM.
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Who do you guys think would be a good opponent for Yoko Kurama at the end of the series?
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Yeah but then I see having his durability as galaxy level due to tanking an attack. So...

It's kinda the same thing with DBZ. Goku got scratched by bullets.
Edited by Notaka, Jul 30 2017, 11:21 PM.
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Notaka
Jul 30 2017, 11:21 PM
Yeah but then I see having his durability as galaxy level due to tanking an attack. So...

It's kinda the same thing with DBZ. Goku got scratched by bullets.
I actually played FF8, I know the story elements involved. Squall and co. are nowhere near the level of getting smashed by planets, asteroids, and moons (oh my). There was no mention of any power increase within the party. The only feats we get leading up to that is Squall getting absolutely wrecked by a Sorceress who could barely stop a bullet, and after that, he gets pinned down by bullets. During the entire game, the enemies you face are relatively normal monsters and humans. Swords, giant beasts etc etc. This also ignores the fact that Seifer, who made Squall s*** his pants, gets done in by a very small tornado. Like, a mini tornado.

This also ignores that Ultimecia is *fated* to lose against Squall and his friends. No matter what she attempted to do, she was going to always lose to them. She could drop the universe itself condensed into a ball, and the party would've tanked it. They were blatantly protected by plot. That's what VSBattles doesn't take into consideration. Context. The absolute maximum we have for the strength of the party, is based off of Zell (a blatant Shonen parody.) and the best he can do is derail a train and run around the planet once within five seconds. Even if the rest of the party were scaled to that (and they're not because Zell's speed feat is a limit break) they're still not planet level.
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Jul 30 2017, 11:30 PM.
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Well I guess you're right.

I really shouldn't talk when I don't even know :rofl:
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Good matchup for Acnologia in dragon form?
Edited by Son-Goku, Aug 2 2017, 05:18 PM.
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How strong is Acnologia?
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Aug 2 2017, 05:23 PM
How strong is Acnologia?
Strongest Fairy Tail antagonist. Leagues upon leagues above any other dragon in the series. All magic is completely useless against him, so you'd have to rely on physical strength. But even in his human form his speed and strength is way too much for everyone. Kills a man who was called the strongest wizard with a single blow from his hand, he doesn't even use magic he just hits him and he zooms straight by with his speed. That was in his human form. He can eat any type of magic to grow stronger. He eats something called the Ravines of Time, so he can control time. Of course it isn't explained very well what he can do with it. His goal was to destroy the world with his new power and bring humans to extinction. But with the Ravines of Time eaten his soul was split into two so he absorbed the Dragonslayers to try and stabilize his magic abilities.
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