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| Super Saiyan From the Cell Games and On... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 3 2016, 02:48 AM (1,016 Views) | |
| Saberoph | Feb 3 2016, 02:48 AM Post #1 |
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This isn't me bringing up the whole Kili thing in the Boo arc, and with that out of the way. I just looked over how Kakarrot and Gohan handled themselves while being suppressed in SS from leaving the ROSAT to powering up at the Cell Games, and it appears to me that where I kept placing Kakarrot and Gohan's Transformation Multiplier is just way too high compared to how they restrained themselves. I used to have it x10, but it seems to me that it's more like at least x2. Sure, I could just make this a throwaway comment in a Thread when discussing this, but I think with how much this changed Super Saiyan from this point on, that it deserved it's own Thread. Before I confuse anyone and someone says "Hey you're contradicting yourself because you say the Multiplier doesn't decrease!" No, I say the overall Multiplier for SS at Full Power is still x50, but since Saiyans can Transform into SS and suppress their power while being in full control, this just means there's a second Multiplier called the Transformation Multiplier, which allows the Saiyan to transform using less Ki and not having to be at full power at first, but allowing themselves a ton of power they can tap into when putting themselves at full power would still be x50 Base. Also, do you think this Transformation Multiplier was lowered even further by Kakarrot and Vegeta during their training during the seven year gap? |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| Billa | Feb 4 2016, 09:51 AM Post #2 |
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Thala na Gethu!
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I dont believe in Digits or Multipliers, but goin by what OP has to offer. Yeah, the Transformation Multipliers have been ridiculously lowered Like frm SSJ being 50X stronger than Base form to.... SSJ2 being TWICE stronger than regular SSJ Then you've got ASSJ, USSJ & FPSSJ in-between those 2 states... Looks vague imo. |
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| Dankness Lava | Feb 4 2016, 01:58 PM Post #3 |
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Dankness Forever
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SSj2's multiplier isn't actually official, just accepted to be. Could be a bigger boost. |
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| Billa | Feb 4 2016, 02:44 PM Post #4 |
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Thala na Gethu!
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For real? It was fan-made assumption for years & most clowns I've came across flaunted the multiplier as if it came outta Toriyama's mouth What abt SSJ3 then? Said to be at least 4X stronger than SSJ2. Lookin at performances of SSJ3 Goku & SSJ2 Vegeta against Kid Buu (1 minute at that) somewhat feels right. Feelin dizzy now...dats why I freakin hate Multipliers lol |
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| Dankness Lava | Feb 4 2016, 03:50 PM Post #5 |
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Dankness Forever
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Thats because they think guidebooks are equivalent to AT. They can be prone to mistakes though. SSj3's multiplier is at least more believable, but no, there's no way to tell how official it is unless it's actually stated from the man himself. Honestly power levels ended after Freeza Saga, and for good reason. Its a bit of a headache constantly checking on them to see how accurate they are. Therefore multipliers can't be too reliable either. |
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| Saberoph | Feb 4 2016, 04:51 PM Post #6 |
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As for the Ascended SS and SS3 Multipliers, I use x4 for Ascended SS and x6 for SS3. I know this is going to open a can of worms and get something started, but there isn't anything confirming the overall SS Multiplier lowering. This is why... During the Cell Games Super Saiyans were shown with the ability to power up after Transforming. During the Boo arc they are still shown this same ability. We all know before Vegeta becomes Majin that he's inferior to Kakarrot from Base to Ascended SS, well when Kakarrot Transforms in front of Yakon, Vegeta is still calm and isn't surprised by his power either. Then, when Kakarrot Transforms again Vegeta still hasn't noticed that he's inferior, we then see SS Kakarrot put out more power, then we see Vegeta's reaction, then we see the burst. Now mind you, Kakarrot only went SS to begin with only to show Yakon he had a source of light if he needed one, not to show off his power. So, logically with what we know about SS' it makes absolutely no sense for Kakarrot to be at full power from the very start, you would also have to explain why Vegeta never comments on being inferior if he was at full power from the start. So, given what we know about Super Saiyans and when you look at the whole Yakon and SS thing, the only thing the Killi meter tells us is that it just even more confirms the amount of control and suppression Saiyans have over their SS power. IT doesn't mean the overall SS Multiplier actually lowers, it just further proves you don't need to Transform at full power and suppress it, you can Transform and right out of the gate the SS power is only x5 Base, but you power up to max and be x50 Base. Basically the Killi meter says that the Transformation Multiplier can be as low as x10 and perhaps even lower, but it doesn't mean the overall SS Multiplier is lower than x50. Yes, I know about Toriyama's line about how he thought of it as, but that also doesn't make any sense because if that was the case then Kakarrot wouldn't need SS and just use Kaioken x20 to win his fights, sure he would be winded, but until SS was mastered it did the exact same thing. I'm not here saying it's my way or no way at all, but this is about logic and paying attention to all the details, and if you look at the Cell Games and the whole Boo arc objectively then you see how the Killi meter doesn't suggest or confirm the SS Full Power lowering. I realize people do it for simplicity's sake, and others do it because they think it gets too crazy if you follow another Boo arc Implication, but you can make both work without getting too out of control. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| Dankness Lava | Feb 4 2016, 10:52 PM Post #7 |
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Dankness Forever
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Even with all that in mind, you could fit what happened in a 20x multiplier for SSj. You could also argue that it proves SSj isn't a static multiplier. If it were, Vegeta would have little reason to be shocked. |
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| + Kaboom | Feb 4 2016, 11:16 PM Post #8 |
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The 2x boost for Super Saiyan 2 IS official. It's straight from the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, one of Shueisha's more in-depth guidebooks for the series. This one of the two SEG volumes actually talked a LOT about strength stuff, including Goku's training regimens and methods of improvement over the years. "How much strength does each form give Goku" was one of the bigger points touched upon, and it gave us x2 for SS2 and x4 for SS3. So the SS2 and SS3 boosts, and especially the constantly-reprinted 50x boost for SS1, are all as "official" and authoritative as they can possibly get. Magma seems to be mixing up "unofficial" with just not personally believing or subscribing to it. Edited by Kaboom, Feb 4 2016, 11:17 PM.
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| Dankness Lava | Feb 4 2016, 11:28 PM Post #9 |
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Dankness Forever
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But then why would the modified SSj forms be considered valuable at any point in time? Vegeta made them out to be significant. And what exactly makes the guidebooks so official? Did AT play a role in their creation? I'm ignorant on this. |
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| Saberoph | Feb 5 2016, 01:47 AM Post #10 |
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It just means that the Transformation Multiplier Kakarrot used is a lower one than the traditional one, which we already knew. It doesn't mean the overall Multiplier at full power is lower than x50. Also, it really doesn't prove the SS Overall SS Multiplier isn't static. Vegeta can be shocked because he discovers that Kakarrot's Base-Ascended SS is higher than his own, so until he feels the Full Power of one of Kakarrot's forms, then he can compare it to his own, because until this point Kakarrot was suppressed in Base and his SS was also suppressed until right before he burst his Ascended SS. Edited by Saberoph, Feb 6 2016, 03:04 PM.
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Feb 6 2016, 02:04 PM Post #11 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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Something that also throws a monkey wrench into the multiplier debate is that Toriyama specifically stated that he imagined the SSj boost to be 10x, not 50x; and 10x was the way he drew it in the manga. Therefore, it's only reasonable assumption that anyone can make is that any feat in the manga that is used to compare SSj vs Base feat can't be taken as literal because it's simply not compatible with what we can reference as being the "official multiplier". In other words, every arguement that we can make to evidence the 50x/decreasing multiplier debate is a lie. As for me, I consider the actual multiplier to be 10x as Toriyama envisioned, and as for the number discrepency for the Freeza arc, we can come up with some technical nonsense about a zenki of 5x at the moment of initial transformation and/or rage boost with SSj... but I guess it doesn't really make a difference in the end anyway, does it? Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Feb 6 2016, 02:09 PM.
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| Scotty_Rogers | Feb 6 2016, 02:07 PM Post #12 |
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Your Boy Scotty
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It may be official material (as in, it comes from an official source), but that doesn't make it canon. Highly doubt SS2 is really just a 2X boost. |
| Mah dogs are hongrey | |
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Feb 6 2016, 02:13 PM Post #13 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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Just to point out, Toriyama doesn't seem to know what the hell is going on in the series half the time either. Just because he says it doesn't make it true, particularly when he (for example) thought that Bulma's hair was blonde. He also completely forgot that SSj2 existed, as he believed that SSj3 was SSj2. We as hardcore fans seem to know more about his series than he does. However, the guides (although technically non-canon) are the closest reference to these points that we have. There are no statements from Toriyama on the matter, and even his statement about him envisioning SSj as 10x simply doesn't make sense when you consider the numbers that we see in the Freeza Arc. Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Feb 6 2016, 02:17 PM.
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![]() The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | |
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| Saberoph | Feb 6 2016, 02:47 PM Post #14 |
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The only problem with that is Kakarrot could just Master Kaioken even better than before and use x20 just as easily s he used x10. So, making it x10 makes absolutely no sense, because there's already something out there that's more powerful and would make SSJ useless until it came to ASSJ. If Toriyama wanted it to be x10 then he should've made it that from the start, but to later say that after it was to be x50, he comes off as contradicting himself. In multiple interviews he's contradicted himself, so can we really take what he says at face value with how much he's contradicted himself? This is why to all the way to the End of Z I still use a x50 Multiplier for SSJ, and I don't budge on the matter. Because AT's statement doesn't make sense and the Kili argument isn't consistent either. Edited by Saberoph, Feb 6 2016, 03:29 PM.
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Feb 6 2016, 11:03 PM Post #15 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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There's no evidence that Kaioken can be mastered, in addition to this, Super Saiyan is sustainable for extended periods of time while Kaioken isn't; and Kaioken can be dangerous to the user if used while injured or if used incorrectly. Super Saiyan (if it only has a 10x boost) has certain advantages that Kaioken doesn't. It's the same thing when you compare the power of Kamehameha vs Genki Dama. Genki Dama in power blows Kamehameha out of the water, but the drawback is that it takes too long to form, this is why Goku almost never uses it. I take what Toriyama says about his feelings as literal because those aren't simple story facts that he's bullsh*tting or getting wrong. For example, he's stated on more than one occasion that he didn't like the way that Goku was portrayed in the anime. Another argument that we can consider is that we don't know how the kiri meter measures power, we don't know what Goku's power was in base, and so on. It's been continually proven that speed and power aren't always congruent, therefore Goku being able to dodge Yakkon's attacks in base can't be truly brought up in a power argument. ... and there's the fact that Toriyama stated that he envisioned SSj to be 10x, which probably explains why the estimated kiri reading for base Goku and SSj Goku don't make sense when you use the 50x argument; which is the only verifiable reference on what the multiplier should be. ... and Toriyama never stated it was 50x, but it's the only number that makes sense considering the numbers and power percents that we see in the Freeza arc. Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Feb 6 2016, 11:17 PM.
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