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| Are people going to get more and more sensitive? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 1 2016, 05:36 AM (2,926 Views) | |
| Dankness Lava | Feb 1 2016, 10:25 PM Post #46 |
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Dankness Forever
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Really? I think that's pushing it. |
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| Tinny | Feb 1 2016, 10:42 PM Post #47 |
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I mean enforcing it sure, but I'd definitely prefer if the default way to refer to someone was xe. You don't need to know what they identify as, xe works fine for anyone. |
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| + Sandy Shore | Feb 1 2016, 10:45 PM Post #48 |
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'They', 'them', and 'theirs', etcetera, are perfectly good gender-neutral pronouns. I also don't think it would ever be a good idea to take to referring to everyone as such, as "him" and "her" help us better understand exactly who we're referring to. If they look like a man, then call them a man, because it helps narrow it down exactly who you're talking about. We should be obliging should we know of their concerns, but I'm sure they're understanding enough that they're in the minority, and distinguishing people can be very useful. |
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| Tinny | Feb 1 2016, 10:47 PM Post #49 |
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I suppose, though I will say I don't like "they" because it's a plural pronoun. Xe is more singular, and he/she does help to narrow down the image of the person we're talking I suppose, it's valid. I just kind of wish xe was a more common term than it is currently however. Edited by Tinny, Feb 1 2016, 10:49 PM.
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| Cloud | Feb 1 2016, 11:13 PM Post #50 |
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I live in South-Eastern 'Merica. Which, basically, is 30 years ago (If not more in some parts). You literally travel through time when you cross certain state borders. Technology, society norms, etc. I don't see the Fear Culture invading this part of the world for a long time. Edited by Cloud, Feb 1 2016, 11:14 PM.
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| + Steve | Feb 1 2016, 11:27 PM Post #51 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Oh look, a worthless "argument" You're pretty much not contributing to any kind of discussion at this point. Invoking the Fallacy Fallacy is meaningless "I don't get your point or where you are coming from, so you are wrong"
What's the point then really? Xe etc etc are pointless if you can just say they or them. "They found this dropped item" "Them. That group over there threatened me" I see no reason to remove the distinction of he or she, no matter what your gender is you're male or female in how you look typically. Can you imagine the silly scenario of trying to explain who in a crowd took your wallet when they're all in the same clothing and you're absolutely barred from saying it's the only one who looks like a man? "Th...that one..." "Who? Which Xe? That Xe? One of Xem?" "The man!" "What if he's not even a man? You can't claim it was a man that's wrong" Not that it would be an absurdly common event but under that ruleset not being able to make the distinction would just be nonsense. And I suppose people wearing the same outfit isn't all that far fetched if you were at say a sporting event. It's just unnecessary "he" and "she" have been distinctions for thousands of years many languages are even built up around such distinctions, such as French. Should the French be forced to change that because they're making objects conform to fascist binary gender standards? |
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| Dankness Lava | Feb 2 2016, 12:11 AM Post #52 |
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Dankness Forever
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Well if thus is about not offending, one could get offended if you say that because they think you can't tell their gender lol |
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| Tinny | Feb 2 2016, 01:14 AM Post #53 |
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Is more like a convenience thing I suppose ('specially for myself), plus I generally find "they" to be a stupid label for people that don't identify as one gender, I mean I assume they identify as an individual and not a group of individuals, they'd be another story. I just wish it was a more common term than it is overall, preferably the default, though that needs most people to agree. Edited by Tinny, Feb 2 2016, 01:16 AM.
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| + Sandy Shore | Feb 2 2016, 01:31 AM Post #54 |
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'They' has been used as a singular pronoun for a very long time. Before I was even aware that there was a preference, it was the default I started using. It makes sense, and it's already in the collective consciousness to be used as such - people need only point out that it's what they want. 'Ze', 'mir', and 'hir', etcetera, don't make much sense to the vast majority, and require a lot of conditioning that 'they' already has the benefit of. This isn't a case of accommodating people, but people demanding special attention and/or care. Why should people choose their pronoun? What if another group of people from the same umbrella prefer something else, and demand we use that instead? It's not as if all the 'hims' are 'hers' of the world are privileged to be referred to as they like, they just are, and I think we would all agree that 'they' just always has been appropriate and used for this situation. Perhaps too personal, and not something you wish to delve in to—in which case I understand—but if you're not keen on being a him or a her, why the name "Tin Man"? |
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| Tinny | Feb 2 2016, 01:56 AM Post #55 |
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Admittedly I did not realize that, nor did I realize that apparently singular pronoun usage first appeared in the late 1300s and used by Chaucer... I suppose I get that, but at the same time, ze has been around a while as well, just hasn't really reached public consciousness yet. I suppose part of it is I feel the pronouns should have a specific usage, but Chesterfield kind of blew a hole in that idea already. While that is true to an extent, I would say allot of ideas have needed to been accepted into the people by conditioning and children learning, including that of homo or bisexuality, or even democracy to an extent. This I would actually think the opposite, if they request a specific pronoun, why not use it? I can get if they're being an a***** about it (though I'd just stop talking with that person personally), but if they are calm and reasonable I don't see a reason not to. True, though I think that's more an issue with society than anything. I do think we should eventually move (preferably slowly for general stability I imagine) towards something where people can simple ask to be referred to whatever pronoun they wish, first meetings being exempted in the event that for one reason or another you can't or haven't explained what pronoun you prefer (I'm not sure if that's clear or not so basically I'd say it's fine to refer to visual gender at first, and after the person states their preferred pronoun or whatever use that. I am making this sound so much more stiff than it would be ). Uh, I suppose I'd see it similar to a name, and iirc Mx (pronounced mix, similar to miss) is already used within the UK and the business world of the United Kingdom (I don't think it's common but I think it's an option?), so I would say that in a way we are already heading there, even if it's slowly.It's a perfectly valid question, mostly has to do with me not trusting myself to do something stupid. Previous place I used to be at I pretended to be female (not for any particular reason, mostly because I suppose I wanted to be one I guess). While it ended in no drama and even became a funny joke (I'm secretly a woman pretending to be a man that pretended to be a woman kind of thing), there was a lot of guilt I had after a while of pretending. Overall I would say I can deal with and will deal with being a "He" and a "Mr.", but there are times I feel like a woman or wish I was. I suppose I'd say I'm gender fluid if anything. As for the name I'm probably changing it to Tinny or something at some point, I don't think I'll get any Wizard of Oz jokes any time soon anyway
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| + Sandy Shore | Feb 2 2016, 03:08 AM Post #56 |
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Barely a century of very little acknowledgement compared to six in which it has been innate, ingrained, and naturalised. I feel 'ze' doesn't really have any legs to stand on. But this doesn't need to be. It's superfluous and fanciful. Primarily because we already have 'they', and it wouldn't work as a universal pronoun because it would be detrimental to completely do away with 'him' and 'her'. Why, though? It doesn't change or accomplish anything, but someone gets special recognition because they've asked for it, and anyone who doesn't feel it's warranted would be shunned as needlessly confrontational and/or prejudiced by the personalised pronoun advocates. Imagine if a celebrity called Ryan asked if everyone started calling them "Gen", and referring to them as "eoxy" instead of 'him'; saying "eoxes" instead of 'his'. It's requesting people put themselves out for needless self-indulgence, and people would recognise it as such. When that sentence alone shows how appropriate 'them' is whilst demonstrating the other point. 'Ze' is on the same level as this "eox" I just made up, as far as I'm concerned. 'They' has evolved to be perfectly adequate, but for some reason people are looking for something more personalised. Pronouns aren't chosen, they arise where and when it's necessary - as the singular 'they' demonstrably has. I know someone will probably accuse me of invoking the proverbial slippery slope, but just imagine if everyone you knew did want personalised pronouns, because while we're allowing it of those who feel they need it, we can't reject others because we feel they don't - and they swear they do! It would be an assault on the language, and our good sense, because it genuinely isn't necessary. Edited by Sandy Shore, Feb 2 2016, 03:11 AM.
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| + Yusuke | Feb 2 2016, 03:29 AM Post #57 |
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TBH, I see more people complaining about "PC" than I see actual "PC".
Edited by Yusuke, Feb 2 2016, 03:32 AM.
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| Tinny | Feb 2 2016, 03:54 AM Post #58 |
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I wasn't arguing with you on that front, "they" seems to already be used in the way "xe" is. Wait how are we defining superfluous and fanciful? I'm pretty sure the idea of religious tolerance must gave seemed fanciful, as well as the acceptance of racial diversity. And I wasn't saying we should replace it, I just wish the idea of a gender neutral pronoun was more popular and accepted. Back over here I had to pretty much search out the gender neutral pronouns and the only place I've found them wad on the internet. "They" is never used at all, here anyway. I feel like this entire post is talking about "xe" and "ze," which I thought I said (I should have clarified better) that I was accepting "they" in place of it. @Yuusuke, tell me about it, I've seen practically bring about SJWs, and way way way more people complaining that they're taking over... They're all jumping at phantoms if you ask me. Edited by Tinny, Feb 2 2016, 03:56 AM.
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| + Yusuke | Feb 2 2016, 04:08 AM Post #59 |
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Exactly. It seems to me like a lot of people just love to scapegoat others to hate something or over exaggerate something to gain leverage in political discussions. Either that or they claim everything is PC to be cool and edgy. I'm absolutely not saying said concept doesn't exist just so everyone knows. Just that people make it a much bigger deal than it actually is IMO. |
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| + Sandy Shore | Feb 2 2016, 04:18 AM Post #60 |
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I'm not saying the use of gender-neutral pronouns in-and-of itself is superfluous or fanciful, only that 'they' shouldn't be used in favour of something like "ze", and whatever else people choose to be referred for preference sake—not for recognition of their position—is. I recognised that you accepted 'they' was proper, but it seemed you were still making a case that "ze", "xe", and whatever else people prefer (read: want), would still be better, and, of course, preferable. I was pointing out why, I'm afraid, I disagree. Edited by Sandy Shore, Feb 2 2016, 04:19 AM.
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). Uh, I suppose I'd see it similar to a name, and iirc Mx (pronounced mix, similar to miss) is already used within the UK and the business world of the United Kingdom (I don't think it's common but I think it's an option?), so I would say that in a way we are already heading there, even if it's slowly.



4:43 PM Jul 13