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The Gap Between #18 and Vegeta.
Topic Started: Jan 28 2016, 10:43 PM (2,481 Views)
ahill1
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Mike
Feb 2 2016, 08:52 PM
It doesn't have to mean that Cell's power is above his own (though that and everything else certainly supports that notion...), but every time the phrase "absurdly large" has been used to refer to another's Ki or battle power, it's always been from the inferior one.

Chapter: 294 (DBZ 100), P14.1
Context: as Freeza powers up
Piccolo: “That large ki has become even more absurdly large! Is this ‘Freeza’ finally starting to move?!”

Chapter: 304 (DBZ 110), P8.3
Context: after Freeza finishes his final transformation
Piccolo: “Wh-what an absurdly large ki….!”

Chapter: 329 (DBZ 135), P12.3
Tenshinhan: “It…it’s not just one…There’s another absurdly large ki…”

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”

Even ignoring that, Vegeta himself says that Cell "easily" surpasses himself. I don't see a single reason to believe that Vegeta isn't the inferior one here.
Good catch Mike. But the gap doesn`t have to be massive. I think a 1.15x gap works just fine.
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+ Sandy Shore
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Well, there is a debate about whether Gero and co. even surpassed Freeza, and so whether Piccolo did is also up in the air. Piccolo is never stated to be in the realm of a Super Saiyan until he fuses with Kami - we all just assume he was because we're lead to believe Gero must be above Freeza. But then there is this whole big thing about Piccolo being the Namekian equivalent of a Super Saiyan upon fusing with Kami; as if his power was never previously in that realm.

It makes sense, because Piccolo getting that strong with just three-years of training is, really, nonsensical. And yet, it doesn't make sense because #19 and #20 are more credible threats than they should be if this were the case.

For this whole portion of the story, the Super Saiyan transformation seems to be mostly treated as a fixed power - a wall that they can't pass by simply training. Which, makes no sense since Vegeta already trained himself to surpass Goku, and Goku was training to get stronger... And - Blegh.
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ahill1
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Lazuli
Feb 2 2016, 10:50 PM
Well, there is a debate about whether Gero and co. even surpassed Freeza, and so whether Piccolo did is also up in the air. Piccolo is never stated to be in the realm of a Super Saiyan until he fuses with Kami - we all just assume he was because we're lead to believe Gero must be above Freeza. But then there is this whole big thing about Piccolo being the Namekian equivalent of a Super Saiyan upon fusing with Kami; as if his power was never previously in that realm.

It makes sense, because Piccolo getting that strong with just three-years of training is, really, nonsensical. And yet, it doesn't make sense because #19 and #20 are more credible threats than they should be if this were the case.

For this whole portion of the story, the Super Saiyan transformation seems to be mostly treated as a fixed power - a wall that they can't pass by simply training. Which, makes no sense since Vegeta already trained himself to surpass Goku, and Goku was training to get stronger... And - Blegh.
Piccolo doesn`t lack coinfidence going against foes stated to be stronger than Future Trunks (Mecha saga). Piccolo was compared with a SSJ from Android saga by Kuririn. When Piccolo was about to defeat Dr.Gero, he said:

Quote:
 
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...


Note that Piccolo even pondered the possibility of #20 being the real Android and them (him, Goku and Vegeta) just becoming too strong for them - what would be impossible if Piccolo was weaker than SSJ Goku (Namek). Therefore Piccolo must be at least stronger than SSJ Trunks (Mecha saga) for even considering the possibility of them just becoming too strong for this foes (who are suppossed to be stronger than Trunks).
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+ Sandy Shore
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I'm quite sure you missed the point I was making. I wasn't making a case for Freeza being stronger than #20, I acknowledged there being reason to believe otherwise, but it's not clearly stated, and there are issues that seem to contradict it. Which I was pointing out.

Namely, Piccolo yet to be compared to a Super Saiyan. While we're at it, though, note that #19 and #20 aren't the threat that Trunks warned them as being worse than Freeza, and Piccolo ponders why they're able to to defeat them so. He figures there is one of two reasons for this: either Piccolo and the others have become too strong—stronger than he realised, since he's trying to rationalise it—or are the androids just not as strong as they expected them to be - worse than Freeza.

Therefore, isn't Piccolo indirectly stating that he expected to be defeated by the enemies stronger than Freeza? The alternative is them having somehow gotten too strong for enemies stronger than Freeza. Whatever the case, it doesn't seem to make any sense to Piccolo.

Of course, neither of these are correct, and we find out that they're just not the same threat that Trunks warned them about.
Edited by Sandy Shore, Feb 2 2016, 11:27 PM.
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ahill1
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Quote:
 
I'm quite sure you missed the point I was making. I wasn't making a case for Freeza being stronger than #20, I acknowledged there being reason to believe otherwise, but it's not clearly stated, and there are issues that seem to contradict it. Which I was pointing out.


I didn't miss anything. You said that Piccolo being stronger than Namek SSJ Goku is up on the air and I just showed you why Piccolo is stronger than Namek SSJ Goku.

Quote:
 
Namely, Piccolo yet to be compared to a Super Saiyan


Kuririn compared Piccolo (pre Kami) to a SSJ though.

Quote:
 
While we're at it, though, note that #19 and #20 aren't the threat that Trunks warned them as being worse than Freeza, and Piccolo ponders why they're able to to defeat them so


They're even stronger than Trunks.

Quote:
 
He figures there is one of two reasons for this: either Piccolo and the others have become too strong—stronger than he realised, since he's trying to rationalise it—or are the androids just not as strong as they expected them to be - worse than Freeza.


Yea, and if Piccolo was weaker than Freeza they sure as hell could not be too strong. If he was weaker than Freeza, or even weaker than Namek Goku, there would be only one possible answer: "They cannot be the real Androids".


Quote:
 
Therefore, isn't Piccolo indirectly stating that he expected to be defeated by the enemies stronger than Freeza? The alternative is them having somehow gotten too strong for enemies stronger than Freeza. Whatever the case, it doesn't seem to make any sense to Piccolo.


No. Piccolo most likely did not think he could take out the Android so handily, which was why he expressed a little surprise and suspected that they were weaker than expected. Maybe Piccolo was originally thinking he would be roughly as strong as the Androids, enough to emerge victorious, but he ended >> #20.


Oh, and sick SSJ Goku was heavily implied to be > Yardrat SSJ Goku and Piccolo even above that, since Piccolo defeated a much stronger Android more or less with the same ease wich Goku did.
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SuperSaiyan1993
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Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans

Lazuli
Feb 2 2016, 04:00 AM
SuperSaiyan1993
Feb 2 2016, 01:28 AM
First, #18 tanks Vegeta's stomach punch like it was nothing. Neither her facial expression nor her tone of voice indicate even a hint of pain. Second, she taunts him right before she casually sends him flying through solid rock.
However, rather oddly, Vegeta manages to score two hits and an energy blast after this—admittedly to very superficial damage—and is then shown to be fighting on par with #18. With the only noted disadvantage to be one of stamina, and not power. Not even Vegeta himself seems to recognise her as being too powerful for him to deal with, and she doesn't appear to have taken those hits on purpose.

There's a big emphasis placed on the energy drain, and how #17 and #18 don't suffer from it - and I can't see how it would be accidental. So, if a gap of 1.2x is stomping-ground, then I'm lead to believe it's more of a 1.1 - 1.15x difference, with energy drain eventually giving her that 1.2x gap that sees her effortlessly breaking his arm.
These feats sound similar to how Vegeta managed to "score" some hits on Recoome. After all, like you said, it is rather odd how Vegeta manages to hit her twice after #18 just tanked a stomach punch effortlessly.
We Super Saiyans are in a league of our own.
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I'll Take This
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Vegeta did put a decent fight against her. I'd say 1.5x gap.
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