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The Gap Between #18 and Vegeta.
Topic Started: Jan 28 2016, 10:43 PM (2,483 Views)
-SuperSaiyan2
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Mike
Jan 29 2016, 12:58 AM
Lazuli
Jan 28 2016, 11:28 PM
Could you provide the quote, please? Do you mean when he says a mysterious, absurdly large battle power has vanished? Well, it is mysterious and absurdly large, even if not superior to his own, no?

If something else, then why does he act as though he has a chance against #18 but doubts he could beat the weaker Cell?
Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…It’s not No.17 or the other androids. They don’t give off any presence at all…W-who the hell is it…!?”

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P14.4
Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

I think these two statements should be enough to infer Vegeta's inferiority.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it has to be a large gap between the two, not that you said it did.
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* Yu Narukami
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Mugiwara
Feb 1 2016, 11:53 PM
Mike
Jan 29 2016, 12:58 AM
Lazuli
Jan 28 2016, 11:28 PM
Could you provide the quote, please? Do you mean when he says a mysterious, absurdly large battle power has vanished? Well, it is mysterious and absurdly large, even if not superior to his own, no?

If something else, then why does he act as though he has a chance against #18 but doubts he could beat the weaker Cell?
Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…It’s not No.17 or the other androids. They don’t give off any presence at all…W-who the hell is it…!?”

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P14.4
Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

I think these two statements should be enough to infer Vegeta's inferiority.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it has to be a large gap between the two, not that you said it did.
It does imply a huge gap. What else is Vegeta going to say? Does he have to say that it's god-like or 'absolutely monstrous' just to describe it being a lot stronger than his own?
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SuperSaiyan1993
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Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans

This moment reveals the power gap between #18 and Vegeta is rather considerable-- 6:40-7:19



First, #18 tanks Vegeta's stomach punch like it was nothing. Neither her facial expression nor her tone of voice indicate even a hint of pain. Second, she taunts him right before she casually sends him flying through solid rock.

I say the gap is bigger than the one between #19 and Vegeta. #19 made Vegeta bleed. #18 emerged relatively unscathed.
Edited by SuperSaiyan1993, Feb 2 2016, 01:29 AM.
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SuperSaiyan1993
Feb 2 2016, 01:28 AM
First, #18 tanks Vegeta's stomach punch like it was nothing. Neither her facial expression nor her tone of voice indicate even a hint of pain. Second, she taunts him right before she casually sends him flying through solid rock.
However, rather oddly, Vegeta manages to score two hits and an energy blast after this—admittedly to very superficial damage—and is then shown to be fighting on par with #18. With the only noted disadvantage to be one of stamina, and not power. Not even Vegeta himself seems to recognise her as being too powerful for him to deal with, and she doesn't appear to have taken those hits on purpose.

There's a big emphasis placed on the energy drain, and how #17 and #18 don't suffer from it - and I can't see how it would be accidental. So, if a gap of 1.2x is stomping-ground, then I'm lead to believe it's more of a 1.1 - 1.15x difference, with energy drain eventually giving her that 1.2x gap that sees her effortlessly breaking his arm.
Edited by Sandy Shore, Feb 2 2016, 04:20 AM.
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ahill1
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Nagito Komaeda
Feb 2 2016, 12:02 AM
Mugiwara
Feb 1 2016, 11:53 PM
Mike
Jan 29 2016, 12:58 AM
Lazuli
Jan 28 2016, 11:28 PM
Could you provide the quote, please? Do you mean when he says a mysterious, absurdly large battle power has vanished? Well, it is mysterious and absurdly large, even if not superior to his own, no?

If something else, then why does he act as though he has a chance against #18 but doubts he could beat the weaker Cell?
Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…It’s not No.17 or the other androids. They don’t give off any presence at all…W-who the hell is it…!?”

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P14.4
Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

I think these two statements should be enough to infer Vegeta's inferiority.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it has to be a large gap between the two, not that you said it did.
It does imply a huge gap. What else is Vegeta going to say? Does he have to say that it's god-like or 'absolutely monstrous' just to describe it being a lot stronger than his own?
Not quite. Kuririn also considered Tenshinhan and Yamcha huge, so I'd not take this statement at a face value. Vegeta groups Cell together with Piccolo, but later on when Cell senses Vegeta on the move, he's suddenly somewhat worried and notes that he'll have to hurry up. This shows me Vegeta is at least somewhat relevant to Cell. I wouldn't go with a gap higher than 1.2x (actually I have Imperfect Cell being 1.1-1.15x stronger than Vegeta).
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ahill1
Feb 2 2016, 06:17 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Feb 2 2016, 12:02 AM
Mugiwara
Feb 1 2016, 11:53 PM
Mike
Jan 29 2016, 12:58 AM
Lazuli
Jan 28 2016, 11:28 PM
Could you provide the quote, please? Do you mean when he says a mysterious, absurdly large battle power has vanished? Well, it is mysterious and absurdly large, even if not superior to his own, no?

If something else, then why does he act as though he has a chance against #18 but doubts he could beat the weaker Cell?
Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…It’s not No.17 or the other androids. They don’t give off any presence at all…W-who the hell is it…!?”

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P14.4
Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

I think these two statements should be enough to infer Vegeta's inferiority.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it has to be a large gap between the two, not that you said it did.
It does imply a huge gap. What else is Vegeta going to say? Does he have to say that it's god-like or 'absolutely monstrous' just to describe it being a lot stronger than his own?
Not quite. Kuririn also considered Tenshinhan and Yamcha huge, so I'd not take this statement at a face value. Vegeta groups Cell together with Piccolo, but later on when Cell senses Vegeta on the move, he's suddenly somewhat worried and notes that he'll have to hurry up. This shows me Vegeta is at least somewhat relevant to Cell. I wouldn't go with a gap higher than 1.2x (actually I have Imperfect Cell being 1.1-1.15x stronger than Vegeta).
If Vegeta noticed Cell and powered up to start fighting, Piccolo would notice and would arrive at the scene in no time.

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P3.5
Context: after Goku recovers from his illness
Goku: “The way I am now, I definitely can’t beat the androids or this ‘Cell’ guy.”

If Goku's not confident in being able to take on Cell at all, Vegeta wouldn't be. After all, he doesn't even know whether he's stronger than Goku now;

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1
Context: after continuing to fight No.18
Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”

Why would Vegeta of all people say that he 'should' be on top if he knows that he is? If he's just as strong as Goku and Goku doesn't have any hope of beating Cell, then he's gonna get absolutely annihilated if he goes up against him.
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ahill1
Feb 2 2016, 06:17 PM
Not quite. Kuririn also considered Tenshinhan and Yamcha huge, so I'd not take this statement at a face value.
Chapter: 337 (DBZ 143), P4.2
Kuririn: “I sense two huge ki near that mountain…That’s probably Yamcha and the others.”

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…It’s not No.17 or the other androids. They don’t give off any presence at all…W-who the hell is it…!?”

They're not exactly comparable. Krillin simply notes their Ki to be huge, not "absurdly large."
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If Vegeta saying an absurdly large power means it has to be above his power, that'd mean he doesn't consider his Ki absurdly large. I don't see Vegeta doing that :P
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It doesn't have to mean that Cell's power is above his own (though that and everything else certainly supports that notion...), but every time the phrase "absurdly large" has been used to refer to another's Ki or battle power, it's always been from the inferior one.

Chapter: 294 (DBZ 100), P14.1
Context: as Freeza powers up
Piccolo: “That large ki has become even more absurdly large! Is this ‘Freeza’ finally starting to move?!”

Chapter: 304 (DBZ 110), P8.3
Context: after Freeza finishes his final transformation
Piccolo: “Wh-what an absurdly large ki….!”

Chapter: 329 (DBZ 135), P12.3
Tenshinhan: “It…it’s not just one…There’s another absurdly large ki…”

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”

Even ignoring that, Vegeta himself says that Cell "easily" surpasses himself. I don't see a single reason to believe that Vegeta isn't the inferior one here.
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I think Cell is above Vegeta. I just thought it'd be fun to make a joke at Vegeta's ego.
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Mike
Feb 2 2016, 08:52 PM
Even ignoring that, Vegeta himself says that Cell "easily" surpasses himself. I don't see a single reason to believe that Vegeta isn't the inferior one here.
Well, he says Cell easily surpasses 'the Super Saiyan'. Vegeta isn't the Super Saiyan, he's a Super Saiyan - despite how much he might like to convince himself otherwise.

Surpassing the Super Saiyan could, really, be anything over it's initial appearance. That being 150,000,000. If we can put a number on 'easily surpassing', then mightn't we use that oft-cited 1.2x gap? So, anything as low as 180,000,000 if we're going to dissect any possible meaning out of the phrase.

Vegeta seems to display a lack of fear, and only disbelief at these powers appearing; and, if Cell is weaker than #18—whom Vegeta didn't run-scared from—the gap could very easily be completely negligible, if it is indeed higher than his own.

Though, personally I don't mind taking it all to mean that Cell is quite a bit stronger than Vegeta, because I think Cell at this point can even be stronger than #18.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P8.3
Cell: “I’ll keep absorbing human life energy unnoticed, and steadily increase my power. And once I’ve greatly exceeded the power of No.17 and No.18, I’ll force them to merge with me…!”
-- there's nothing to say he doesn't already exceed them, or is on par with them; only that he'll wait until he's greatly exceeded their strength before attempting to take their entirety up his rear.

Of course, we know he's below Piccolo, who is roughly on par with #17 - perhaps superior in power to, due to the whole energy thing. So, I can't see any fault in placing Cell anywhere from a bit below Vegeta, on par with #18, to in-between #17 and #18.
Edited by Sandy Shore, Feb 2 2016, 09:25 PM.
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Vegeta's talking about his own transformation;

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P14.4
Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

''They're'' implies more than Piccolo, and even if you assume that he's just talking about the Androids and not Cell, the fact that he talked about Cell and Piccolo in the same statement a little earlier on. Also, he bases his conclusion on the fact that the Androids can't be sensed, not that the powers that he sensed weren't as strong as they would've been.
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Android #18 : 5/5
SSJ Vegeta(Android Arc) : 1.8/5
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Nagito Komaeda
Feb 2 2016, 09:38 PM
Vegeta's talking about his own transformation;
I don't think the language used is very good, but it would seem to me to be saying something else. It's literally the Super Saiyan (transformation) that is the greatest in the universe, according to Vegeta and his sources. And, after all, it did prove to make light of even Freeza - twice.

The "legendary mightiest of warriors", according to Jheese, and "the strongest warrior in the universe", said by Ginyu. Vegeta described it as "a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome". Clearly it's something that he fully believes in. While I'm sure he'd be angry if he were on the losing end of Super Saiyan Goku or Trunks, I don't think he'd be quite so confused if these other, absurdly large powers, seemingly popping up from nowhere, belonged to his fellow Super Saiyans.

It seems to me as if it all seems like a big practical joke everyone is playing on Vegeta.

It's why he's so angry when he realises that the power of a Super Saiyan isn't good enough, and seeks to find something beyond it. It's the form itself he is dissatisfied/disillusioned with, not his own power.
Edited by Sandy Shore, Feb 2 2016, 10:23 PM.
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ahill1
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Lazuli
Feb 2 2016, 09:15 PM
Mike
Feb 2 2016, 08:52 PM
Even ignoring that, Vegeta himself says that Cell "easily" surpasses himself. I don't see a single reason to believe that Vegeta isn't the inferior one here.
Well, he says Cell easily surpasses 'the Super Saiyan'. Vegeta isn't the Super Saiyan, he's a Super Saiyan - despite how much he might like to convince himself otherwise.

Surpassing the Super Saiyan could, really, be anything over it's initial appearance. That being 150,000,000. If we can put a number on 'easily surpassing', then mightn't we use that oft-cited 1.2x gap? So, anything as low as 180,000,000 if we're going to dissect any possible meaning out of the phrase.

Vegeta seems to display a lack of fear, and only disbelief at these powers appearing; and, if Cell is weaker than #18—whom Vegeta didn't run-scared from—the gap could very easily be completely negligible, if it is indeed higher than his own.

Though, personally I don't mind taking it all to mean that Cell is quite a bit stronger than Vegeta, because I think Cell at this point can even be stronger than #18.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P8.3
Cell: “I’ll keep absorbing human life energy unnoticed, and steadily increase my power. And once I’ve greatly exceeded the power of No.17 and No.18, I’ll force them to merge with me…!”
-- there's nothing to say he doesn't already exceed them, or is on par with them; only that he'll wait until he's greatly exceeded their strength before attempting to take their entirety up his rear.

Of course, we know he's below Piccolo, who is roughly on par with #17 - perhaps superior in power to, due to the whole energy thing. So, I can't see any fault in placing Cell anywhere from a bit below Vegeta, on par with #18, to in-between #17 and #18.
But Piccolo (pre Kami) surpassed Goku SSJ (Namek) too and Vegeta did not say anything when he saw Piccolo`s power when fighting Dr.Gero. Heck, even Dr.Gero is above SSJ Goku from Namek.
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