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Super Episode 26 (10 January 2016)
Topic Started: Jan 10 2016, 12:31 AM (21,196 Views)
Tinny
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Those fusions had a very clear and incredible difference in power from before however. Ssj3 was also a pretty big thing when unveiled.
Ssjgssj could have been replaced with base form for all it effected Clearin.
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Yeah, SSj3, Fusion and even Ultimate Gohan all failed to beat the villain, but they were all comparable to the rest of the characters preceding them. SSj3 Goku was the first character to fight on par with Boo/be even stronger than him. Vegetto blew all other powers in the saga of the water.

But with SSj Blue, there's no point introducing a new form if you haven't even established the extent of Goku's base power. We don't get the feeling that Goku's grown to new levels because we don't even know what level he was at before transforming. He's so far above everyone already (except Vegeta, but Vegeta just suffers from the same problem) that having him transform seems pointless. I guess if Blue form was above Beerus it'd have something, but they'd still need to establish that base Goku was far below Beerus too. And even then it wouldn't be all that impressive since Beerus is no longer an enemy, so surpassing him won't be all that special when compared to Goku and Gohan turning Super Saiyan/2 and beating the villain that's been terrorising them all saga.
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sekzee
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But it was made clear. They are only beginning to fathom the power of the Gods. Even as SSJB, they are weaker than Beerus.
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Tinny
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sekzee
Jan 13 2016, 02:25 AM
But it was made clear. They are only beginning to fathom the power of the Gods. Even as SSJB, they are weaker than Beerus.
Cloud your elaborate as to what you mean and are referring to?
Edited by Tinny, Jan 13 2016, 02:29 AM.
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Thiln
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sekzee
Jan 13 2016, 02:25 AM
But it was made clear. They are only beginning to fathom the power of the Gods. Even as SSJB, they are weaker than Beerus.
This is exactly the reason why I wish someone like Krillin would come along and defeat Beerus through a surprise Taiyoken + Kienzan combo. Just to shatter their world of pretension and make them realise that strength isn't everything. Unfortunately, that's when I realise that this is DBZ we're talking about. The people in this series have all the creativity and intuition of a snail. You're either a muscle head or you're useless on a battlefield. There's no middle ground or branching pathways you can take to be capable in your own way that doesn't involve using your fists to pummel someone to death. Seriously, I find more originality with Multiverse's characters than Super.
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魔王子

But at the same time though, the Kienzan being that broken would be hella boring, and everyone would be using it. I'm all for strats, but I don't see how the Earthlings could reasonably put up a fight.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Just give them special abilities, things that go beyond how hard you can punch. Have special techniques,item or something that helps to turn the tables for the heroes advantage, or at least have something that will at least make them useful even if its only as back up or defense.

I always use JJBA as an example, but honestly at this point, you could use many. Naruto and One Piece all contain a vast variety of characters and powers where strength doesn't lie in how strong your Devil Fruit or Ninjutsu is, its how well you utilize them and they all come with pros and cons. Unfortunately as already stated above, its a muscle headed world where only fists talk. There's no originality, no depth, nothing.

And unfortunately its been like that for a long time and I've long since come to the realization that, in the end, DBZ is nowhere near as good as it was when I was a kid and I was ignorant on everything. There are so many shows, shounen or otherwise that just come off as much better and I personally think that if DBZ started off now in this generation (even with decent animation) it wouldn't be nearly as popular or well received. Just because things have changed, genres including Shounen demographic have changed and I feel that a lot more emphasis on characters, plot and development.

It doesn't help how badly Toriyama wants this to be a gag series but instead has it turned into a more mainstream series.
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lazerbem
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When they did the unique powers thing, people didn't like it, lol
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I tend to find that "unique powers" makes for more boring fights. I've read (not watched) the first part of Naruto, and while I did enjoy it, the fights just weren't anything special because almost all of them boiled down to nothing more than people using their specific abilities. I prefer fast paced fist-to-fist combat. When you bring in unique abilities things just get slow because all the attention is on the ability, not the fight.

Whenever Dragon Ball tries a fighter with a unique ability it just isn't that good of a fight. How many people enjoyed Krillin and Gohan vs Guldo compared to the more straight forward Goku vs Majin Vegeta?

Krillin killing people with the discs just wouldn't be very fun to watch when compared to the fights we do get.
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What kind of unique techniques though? I mean, I imagine anything useful would feel like an ass-pull all things considered...
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Clearin
Jan 13 2016, 03:44 AM
I tend to find that "unique powers" makes for more boring fights. I've read (not watched) the first part of Naruto, and while I did enjoy it, the fights just weren't anything special because almost all of them boiled down to nothing more than people using their specific abilities. I prefer fast paced fist-to-fist combat. When you bring in unique abilities things just get slow because all the attention is on the ability, not the fight.

Whenever Dragon Ball tries a fighter with a unique ability it just isn't that good of a fight. How many people enjoyed Krillin and Gohan vs Guldo compared to the more straight forward Goku vs Majin Vegeta?

Krillin killing people with the discs just wouldn't be very fun to watch when compared to the fights we do get.
Well see, there's a difference between a Squishy Wizard fight and a proper Combat Mage. The latter can be very interesting, though yeah, the former gets boring.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I don't see why you can't combine uniqueness with fast paced, hard hitting action.
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Thiln
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I've also thought of some strategies that could in theory allow for a human to compete, but it would be breaking a lot of conventional DBZ norms. First instance - relying on the kind of instantaneous teleportation that doesn't require an energy signature like Kaioshin's to compensate for speed. The second would be outfitting themselves with every conceivable technique that can bypass power levels as possible. I'm not talking about just the Kienzan or the Devilmite Beam, but things that might afflict an opponent through some other kind of means like an AoE type of ability that's capable of damaging senses like Taiyoken but better, maybe attacking their sense of balance and perception through their neural network, stuff that someone like Babidi might use because why not.

My third suggestion would be to have them fight at a distance while conditioning themselves to not be sensed somehow. They could use projectiles and deceptive tactics involving things like Afterimage and Instantaneous Teleportation. But to come up with the sort of attack manoeuvres that could force the likes of Goku or Vegeta into a corner would probably require some kind of "braniac" Gary Stu type character who's more of a tactician than a traditional hand to hand martial artist that uses finesse and being several strategic steps ahead to fight. It doesn't sound like any of the human fighters we have right now. And it seems weird, I know, but how would you go about making them relevant besides the usual "give them ridiculous power up" idea?
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I'd enjoy a fight where Scarlet Witch uses mind tricks on the Z-Fighters, makes Goku believe he's the evil ruler of the Saiyans or something.
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Thiln
Jan 13 2016, 04:01 AM
My third suggestion would be to have them fight at a distance while conditioning themselves to not be sensed somehow. They could use projectiles and deceptive tactics involving things like Afterimage and Instantaneous Teleportation. But to come up with the sort of attack manoeuvres that could force the likes of Goku or Vegeta into a corner would probably require some kind of "braniac" Gary Stu type character who's more of a tactician than a traditional hand to hand martial artist that uses finesse and being several strategic steps ahead to fight. It doesn't sound like any of the human fighters we have right now. And it seems weird, I know, but how would you go about making them relevant besides the usual "give them ridiculous power up" idea?
Sorbert kinda did that. Attacked from a distance, managing to beat someone much stronger than him using technology(?) rather than his own power. Jeice has done the distraction thing before during Goku's fight with Ginyu, but it just made Ginyu mad.

Goku vs Freeza itself is a sort of aversion of the typical "stronger character always wins" thing. Freeza was stronger but he had a specific weakness that lead to his defeat. While then Goku's weakness led to HIS defeat.

This saga has actually been pretty good when it comes to making the weaker characters win due to non-power related reasons :p
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