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Super Episode 26 (10 January 2016)
Topic Started: Jan 10 2016, 12:31 AM (21,200 Views)
King Kakarot
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In the manga Goku literally dropped out of ssj against Freeza and turned his back against him

Again the writing is much better here because he's not in his God form and Sorbet was behind him so he had no way of knowing it was coming
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Tinny
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jan 10 2016, 03:25 AM
You have to first prove he couldn't transform in time before you call his decision idiotic.
No I don't, because deliberately leaving yourself open to an attack is stupid no matter what. He outright made himself weaker than his opponent... Why?

And what is Freeza too slow to fire a ki blast at him or something now? Why didn't Goku turn to base when he fought Freeza the first time? It's not like ssjgssj has drain on him like ssj3 or kaioken, it's a risk taken deliberately and for no reason what so ever.


@KK could you show me the page then?

And no, the writing is worse, because now he deliberately painted a target on himself like he's some shoddy boss monster in a video game and said "please attack me!"
Edited by Tinny, Jan 10 2016, 03:34 AM.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jan 10 2016, 03:25 AM
You have to first prove he couldn't transform in time before you call his decision idiotic.
Goku's speed dropped. We've seen what happens when a powerful character uses a ki attack on a weaker character, it moves so fast that the opponent can't even see the blast. Piccolo couldn't see Freeza's death beam when Freeza first transformed, that could have just as easily been Goku here.
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Tin Man
Jan 10 2016, 03:31 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jan 10 2016, 03:25 AM
You have to first prove he couldn't transform in time before you call his decision idiotic.
No I don't, because deliberately leaving yourself open to an attack is stupid no matter what. He outright made himself weaker than his opponent... Why?

And what is Freeza too slow to fire a ki blast at him or something now? Why didn't Goku turn to base when he fought Freeza the first time? It's not like ssjgssj has drain on him like ssj3 or kaioken, it's a risk taken deliberately and for no reason what so ever.
Why is it dumb if Goku could transform before Freeza reacted? If he reverted, he's confident he could do just that =/.

What do you mean why didn't Goku revert to base the first time he fought Freeza?

Clearin
 
Goku's speed dropped. We've seen what happens when a powerful character uses a ki attack on a weaker character

So? If Goku could transform into a Super Saiyan 3 in a literal instance like he did against Pure Boo, I don't see why he couldn't do that with SSGSS. Honestly, if Goku reverted, I think it's safe to assume he thinks he could react in time.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jan 10 2016, 03:36 AM.
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Tinny
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jan 10 2016, 03:34 AM
Tin Man
Jan 10 2016, 03:31 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jan 10 2016, 03:25 AM
You have to first prove he couldn't transform in time before you call his decision idiotic.
No I don't, because deliberately leaving yourself open to an attack is stupid no matter what. He outright made himself weaker than his opponent... Why?

And what is Freeza too slow to fire a ki blast at him or something now? Why didn't Goku turn to base when he fought Freeza the first time? It's not like ssjgssj has drain on him like ssj3 or kaioken, it's a risk taken deliberately and for no reason what so ever.
Why is it dumb if Goku could transform before Freeza reacted? If he reverted, he's confident he could do just that =/.

What do you mean why didn't Goku revert to base the first time he fought Freeza?


Because he's deliberately making himself weaker than his opponent for no reason whatsoever against an opponent he knows has done this crap before. Plus as Clearin has said this evidently is a problem for soured and reaction time.
Then again this is DBS where the villains are idiots that make Patrick Star look like a genius with a PHD in quantum physics sop who knows, maybe he read the script in advance.

He really did? Well... Goku was always a moron then. You'd think he'd learn some caution at some point though.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jan 10 2016, 03:34 AM
Clearin
 
Goku's speed dropped. We've seen what happens when a powerful character uses a ki attack on a weaker character

So? If Goku could transform into a Super Saiyan 3 in a literal instance like he did against Pure Boo, I don't see why he couldn't do that with SSGSS. Honestly, if Goku reverted, I think it's safe to assume he thinks he could react in time.
The difference is that Goku was given a chance to transform vs Pure Boo at all. Again, Freeza is far above base Goku here, he can easily move faster than Goku can see. The movie might have Goku dropping his guard, but it lets him keep his superior speed and reflexes, which is why Sorbert taking Goku out there worked, because if Freeza tried anything, Goku is faster and could react. Here, Goku is slower. The rule in Dragon Ball is when your opponent is that far above you, you cannot see them move. It's not about the time it takes Goku to transform, it's about the time it takes Goku to notice Freeza is doing anything at all, which he has a MUCH better chance of doing in SSjBlue.
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魔王子

He didn't need to be given the opportunity... Seriously, if Goku reverted, there's a good chance he's confident he could transform before Freeza reacted. You're only creating problems for yourself here.
Clearin
 
Freeza is far above base Goku here

You know, that's not necessarily true. If he's only a little stronger, Goku could potentially tank an attack.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jan 10 2016, 03:42 AM.
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lazerbem
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He couldn't transform in time back on Namek. You bring up him reverting to base on Namek, I'll point out that if Freeza's aim had been slightly better, his head would have been chopped in half. You don't have enough time to transform when you're that weak, even if you can ki sense(like Goku could)
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jan 10 2016, 03:41 AM
He didn't need to be given the opportunity... Seriously, if Goku reverted, there's a good chance he's confident he could transform before Freeza reacted. You're only creating problems for yourself here.
Clearin
 
Freeza is far above base Goku here

You know, that's not necessarily true. If he's only a little stronger, Goku could potentially tank an attack.
Freeza isn't just a "little stronger" than base Goku considering golden Freeza was knocking around SSjGBlue Goku the entire episode, and he had only just lost enough power to be outclassed at the very end of the episode. Unless the gap between base Goku and blue Goku is small, then Freeza is definitely going to be much closer to SSjGBlue than his base. And if he was REALLY losing power fast enough to drop from above Blue Goku to below base Goku in just a couple of minutes, then by the time Vegeta became involved Freeza would be drastically lower than base Vegeta.

Hell it's shown that Goku can't instantly turn SSjG Blue anyway, not only did the initial transformation take a while, but he took an extra few seconds to power up to max.
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lazerbem
Jan 10 2016, 03:43 AM
He couldn't transform in time back on Namek. You bring up him reverting to base on Namek, I'll point out that if Freeza's aim had been slightly better, his head would have been chopped in half. You don't have enough time to transform when you're that weak, even if you can ki sense(like Goku could)
Goku's 50 times weaker in that instance. Goku's what? not even twice as weak at this point, at least supposedly? What's more Goku was far away and not facing Freeza. It was more or less a sneak attack in it's own right.
Clearin
 
Freeza isn't just a "little stronger" than base Goku considering golden Freeza was knocking around SSjGBlue Goku the entire episode

Er, you don't necessarily need a significant lead to dominate someone. I direct you to Vegeta vs Dodoria or Zarbon.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jan 10 2016, 03:49 AM.
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King Kakarot
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But Base Goku knew Freeza a vastly faster character was trying to hit him

Sure he got hurt but he still knew he was in danger
Edited by King Kakarot, Jan 10 2016, 03:53 AM.
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lazerbem
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King Kakarot
Jan 10 2016, 03:47 AM
But Base Goku knew Freeza a vastly faster character was trying to hit him
If you're referring to Namek, at that point he didn't know Freeza did sneak attacks. Still naive, but not quite to this level. By now, Freeza has tried to sneak attack him twice and used all manner of dirty tricks in the current battle.
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Er, you don't necessarily need a significant lead to dominate someone. I direct you to Vegeta vs Dodoria or Zarbon.

The problem is the speed at which Freeza's power must be dropping for that scenario to happen. SSj Blue is literally just Super Saiyan with God powers, so what kind of Super Saiyan multiplier do you have? The most commonly accepted answers, being x10 or x50, would show Freeza losing power at an alarming rate. He'd have to have divided his power by 10/50 in mere minutes. This isn't suggested at all since Freeza is confident to fight Vegeta before Vegeta shows the ability to transform, yet at the speed Freeza's power must be dropping to allow him to be close to base Goku, then Freeza would already be lower than Vegeta by the time the battle started, and if he wasn't already then it would take just a couple of seconds.

Just putting it into numbers real quick:
Base Goku: 10
SSjGBlue Goku: 100
Golden Freeza as he's beating SSjGBlue Goku: 120
Golden Freeza 2 minutes later, if he's supposed to be close to base Goku: 10
Golden Freeza 2 minutes after that: 0.833333333

Obviously it's extremely simplified and the chosen numbers are a bit arbitrary, but the point comes across just fine. If Freeza is supposed to be at base Goku's level just a couple of minutes after kicking his a*** with ease, the rate at which his power is dropping would NEVER allow for him to be confident to beat base Vegeta.

Also Vegeta vs Dodoria/Zarbon are terrible examples of a stomp fight. Both of them lacked two of the three things that Toriyama claims are important to someones Ki level, the right state of mind and confidence. On top of that you need to account for skill level difference, speed difference and the fact Vegeta can sense energy (thus letting him keep track of his opponent much easier)
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Goku no-sold a punch from Freeza. I think it's safe to assume he's much weaker.
Clearin
 
Base Goku: 10
SSjGBlue Goku: 100

That might too big a difference there. There supposedly ain't much of a difference between Beyond God and SSGSS. Of course, all of this is vague. It could still be 50 times for all we know...
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jan 10 2016, 03:46 PM.
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My Dear Melancholy,

Wait if SSGSS isn't a big increase. Why dont Goku just use Kaioken?
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