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What the heck is "Saiyan Beyond God" and how strong is SSGSS?
Topic Started: Jan 6 2016, 03:13 AM (3,973 Views)
+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

Rather, what does "Saiyan Beyond God" mean? A more proper translation of the "form" would be "Saiyan who has surpassed God" (神を超えたサイヤ人). Does this mean this new base form is stronger than Super Saiyan God or does it mean something akin to having bypassed the need to use Super Saiayn God? Honestly, the wording just has me confused. Moving beyond that, assuming it's the latter, how do you think Saiyan Beyond God would compare to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? Based on this exchange between the Oracle Fish and Whis, it would appear the this Saiyan Beyond God form is quite a bit inferior to that of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan:
Super Fact Checker: Episode 18
 
Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

Either Whis is referring to other Gods, since Rageta alone was able to push Beerus into using 10% of his strength, or Whis is referring to their new base states when he says they're far from reaching the realm of the gods. At least, that's how I interpret this. What are your thoughts?
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jan 6 2016, 03:15 AM.
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Mihawk
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Small chance of it being foreshadowing for a new form. I think he just means they're not really in god territory yet.

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I don't think "Saiyan beyond god" is a power description meaning "stronger" or "greater" or anything. Unless I've missed something blatantly saying otherwise, I think it just means "a Saiyan who became a god in the past." Or perhaps more aptly, "a Saiyan whose power is different after becoming a god."

That said, Bluper Saiyan is exactly what Goku's described it as twice now. A Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. They're using the Super Saiyan form to channel the godly power of the Super Saiyan God form. Goku, and somehow also Vegeta, managed to "absorb that world of power" into themselves, but Super seems to indicate that they needed training to tap into it fully and freely. The SSGSS form is apparently what allows them to do that.
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Kaboom
Jan 6 2016, 03:51 AM
That said, Bluper Saiyan is exactly what Goku's described it as twice now. A Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. They're using the Super Saiyan form to channel the godly power of the Super Saiyan God form. Goku, and somehow also Vegeta, managed to "absorb that world of power" into themselves, but Super seems to indicate that they needed training to tap into it fully and freely. The SSGSS form is apparently what allows them to do that.
I already know what Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is, I'm asking how does it compare to Saiyan Beyond God. Like, is it still a 50 times increase, or has that changed?
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jan 6 2016, 03:56 AM
I already know what Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is, I'm asking how does it compare to Saiyan Beyond God. Like, is it still a 50 times increase, or has that changed?
Oh. Well, until they lay something out for us... who knows? The 50x boost is ultimately just trivia, and Toei and Toriyama probably care even less about coming up with something for this now. Heck, maybe Goku and Vegeta don't even need SSGSS to use the god-power, and it just makes it easier or something.
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Hmm, well, hopefully it will be revealed how they compare at some point. I guess I'm just going to assume the usual 50 times until something would contradict that.
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Idk why he's only a god when he turns ssjb though. It's tapping into the God power he absorbed but isn't he already using the ssjg power since his base form seems to be just as strong. He should already have God ki in base form right? What makes ssj a god form now?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jan 6 2016, 08:12 AM.
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ekrolo2
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If you're using the God scale, it can't be a 50 times increase unless increasing power by 50 counts as adding 1.5 to 2.5 points on the scale to their base forms 6.
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That's the thing though, where is it stated that Saiyan Beyond God is equal to Super Saiyan God?
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The movies kind of support this idea given base Goku's performance against Beerus during the brief time he uses during the fight while Super is implying they're a lot weaker than SSG without transforming. The term "Saiyan Beyond God" though is just a Dragon Ball Heroes thing that everyone's opted to use. Neither Super nor the films treat Goku & Vegeta's stronger base states as a new state of being like Gohan's Ultimate form, they just treat them as Goku & Vegeta being really damn strong in base now.
Edited by ekrolo2, Jan 6 2016, 03:55 PM.
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The movies don't interest me at the moment. I want to know what Super has to say, as it seems to be the standard at this point. As you pointed out, Super doesn't seem to suggest their new base forms are anything special, so the 50 times multiplier doesn't seem to be contradicted at the moment.
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I wouldn't say Super is the standard since Toriyama is loosely affiliated with the re-tellings at best and he'll probably just up and ignore them, only taking the movies into account for future power stuff.

But for the sake of argument, unless they're base forms are beneath Rageta levels, the multiplier would break the God scale completely if it works as everyone is assuming it does. The only way I can see it working is if the God scale operates on tiers rather than 2+2=4. Let's say Goku and Vegeta as Saiyan's Beyond God are 3s and increasing their power by 50 lets them jump a few tiers, putting them at say 7.5 to 8 each.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jan 6 2016, 03:58 PM
The movies don't interest me at the moment. I want to know what Super has to say, as it seems to be the standard at this point. As you pointed out, Super doesn't seem to suggest their new base forms are anything special, so the 50 times multiplier doesn't seem to be contradicted at the moment.
How does super not suggest base goku is as strong as ssjg goku? He punched out beerus's blast. If it weren't for that I would say ssj goku post absorption=ssjg God goku
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I don't see how detonating Beerus's attack puts him on Super Saiyan God's level.
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Beerus said in BoG that base goku post god is not that far from ssjg goku


I think

beerus =100

Golden frieza = 80

ssjgssj goku = 70

ssjgssj vegeta = 65

ssjg goku = 60

post god base goku fnf = 35

post god base vegeta = 32

post god ssj goku bog = 50

post god base goku bog =25

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