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Super Episode 23 (13 December 2015)
Topic Started: Dec 13 2015, 03:14 AM (15,829 Views)
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Clearin
Dec 18 2015, 08:02 PM
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Dec 18 2015, 07:58 PM
You watch it raw? Savage!

as for the quote "In fact, it turns out that raising his ki high enough to summon Goku had been Gohan’s goal all along". beginning of the 4th paragraph. come to think of it, the new "episode 24" post has the exact same quote.
I watch it live with friends. Pretty much the best way to watch Super is with other people so you can make fun of it while you watch.

And yeah, I edited my last point to go into further detail: "Also the summary doesn't make it quite as clear just how much torture Gohan was putting himself through". Other people seemed to hate the scene as much as me, and say how it treated Gohan badly, so I never would have imagined the scene played out as it actually did. I don't know why people would call this treating Gohan badly. It shows a great deal of bravery for putting himself through that kind of pain, including potential death, just so everyone else can have a chance of survival.

The episode 24 thread was made too early. Episode 24 has no summary since it doesn't air until tomorrow (or technically Sunday in Japan). They re-used episode 23's summary.
People consider it bad probably because they're expecting Gohan to do his usual (and logical) rage boost moment, and that that is what summons Goku and Vegeta—him fighting valiantly against Freeza. Instead, he doesn't do any fighting, which is a let down for me and others.
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+ Clearin
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Pyrus
Dec 18 2015, 08:07 PM
Clearin
Dec 18 2015, 08:02 PM
Instant Transmission
Dec 18 2015, 07:58 PM
You watch it raw? Savage!

as for the quote "In fact, it turns out that raising his ki high enough to summon Goku had been Gohan’s goal all along". beginning of the 4th paragraph. come to think of it, the new "episode 24" post has the exact same quote.
I watch it live with friends. Pretty much the best way to watch Super is with other people so you can make fun of it while you watch.

And yeah, I edited my last point to go into further detail: "Also the summary doesn't make it quite as clear just how much torture Gohan was putting himself through". Other people seemed to hate the scene as much as me, and say how it treated Gohan badly, so I never would have imagined the scene played out as it actually did. I don't know why people would call this treating Gohan badly. It shows a great deal of bravery for putting himself through that kind of pain, including potential death, just so everyone else can have a chance of survival.

The episode 24 thread was made too early. Episode 24 has no summary since it doesn't air until tomorrow (or technically Sunday in Japan). They re-used episode 23's summary.
People consider it bad probably because they're expecting Gohan to do his usual (and logical) rage boost moment, and that that is what summons Goku and Vegeta—him fighting valiantly against Freeza. Instead, he doesn't do any fighting, which is a let down for me and others.
Well his body was full of holes, and he was already on the verge of death :p The fact he could muster up the power to get Goku's attention at all is impressive imo.

Not that I think Gohan's treatment was great in this saga in general. Not even being allowed to kill Tagoma/Ginyu? C'mon.
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lazerbem
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Gohan's rage boost amounted to screaming for daddy to come bail his a*** out again.

He's got a justifiable reason for it, but in the end, it's still a rather large step down from the days in which he beat the crap out of the guy that daddy couldn't beat(of course only after screaming for daddy to bail his a*** out, but details, details)
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

I guess if that's the context, it's not so bad, but what he says about his lack of training supposedly goes nowhere according to chapter 7 >_< .
EDIT: Also, they didn't exactly have to make Gohan look so pathetic. It would have looked better had Gohan's eyes gone plain white.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Dec 18 2015, 08:46 PM.
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Gohan looked like he was seeing snowflakes for the very first time.
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FutureProtagonist
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir

Saiyan Arc Gohan was less of a scaredy cat.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Honestly, Gohan's characterization has probably been given the biggest "f*** you" to any other character seen in this series.

Gohan in the Saiyan Arc first started off as a scared child who obviously wasn't ready for battle. He was basically kidnapped, watched his father died, kidnapped again, forced to go through training and then meet up with opponents he obviously didn't want to face nor was he ready to face them, whether physically or mentally. Build up from this and we might get somewhere.

Instead, Gohan by the time of the Namek Arc is no longer a scared child. He is more than willing to head to Namek. Now fair enough, he didn't expect to run into Freeza and his men there. But you know what? That didn't stop Gohan from getting in on the action and throwing a few punches and ki blasts if need be. He might have needed some support by others but he was more than willing to throw down if it came to it. Much like Krillin, Gohan may have been terrified at they opponents they had the face but he still had the balls to stand up and take on those challenges and not just pussy out and run to Bulma to suck her tits.

Gohan was willing to face the Ginyu Squad and was willing to attack Freeza. Sure Gohan might try to take the safer route if he could but again, he was willing to fight.

Then the Android Arc came around. Now for a guy who hates training, wants nothing to do with fighting and apparently can't even stand it, still spends 3 years training. At this point you'd think Gohan might have made the notion of talking to his father about his ill desire to fight and train. But no, he's training and heading off to face the cyborgs instead of...I don't know...staying home. Doe she feel the need to just be there for moral support for his father and the others?

And again, for someone who wants to just be at peace and study, Gohan's going all around with everyone, getting in on the action and what. Then the Cell Arc comes around and instead of saying.

"Hey dad, I don't really like fighting" or Piccolo saying it now instead of later when he's getting the snot kicked out of him. But instead, Gohan gladly goes to the ROSAT and then heads to the Cell Games with everyone else. Does he not think that maybe...just maybe he might get into a fight. Does he think Cell's going to be all...

Cell: Oh no...I have landed outside the right. You are victorious Son Goku. As an honorable warrior I shall now leave your planet in peace...study well Gohan. *Flies off*

Then finally you get to his battle with Cell and its like a huge middle finger to what his character had been like and now its regressed all the way back to the Saiyan Arc incarnation. Gohan suddenly doesn't want to or like fighting. Then why the f*** are you even here Gohan? He talks about how he doesn't want to kill Cell. Because clearly Gohan only wanted to give people like the Ginyu Squad and Freeza a stern talking.

Now let's talk about this whole rage boost thing. In the series, it did not take Gohan that much to push him over the edge. Have his friends take a good beating and he's fly off on the handle and shove his arm as far down as he could his opponents throat while screaming. Here? Cell has to firstly beat the absolute snot out of him, then he goes up and blows up No. 16, then he goes and tortures all of his friends while he watches and then crushes No. 16's head and it's only after this that Gohan decides...eh....I'm kind of miffed now.

Boo Arc finally comes around. Gohan is finally the lazy a***, boring, nerd he's always wanted to be. All that training, fighting, battling and rage induced hell he's been going through for nearly his entire life? Well that's gone now. Gohan can no longer get rage boosts or even turn SSJ2...despite doing that at the Budokai earlier. At least in the past Gohan earned his great power by doing something, by training and showing effort. Sure he may have gotten more power than usual than somebody but he didn't get it by....I don't know...swinging a sword around for a day and then sitting on his a*** 20+ hours.

In short, Gohan in the Boo Arc became easily the laziest character in the series and yet got everything from it like he was a goddamn prodigy.

Finall, we have Super Gohan. Dear...lovable Super Gohan. Anything he might have learned in the Boo Arc, things about keeping up with his training, staying strong, all the obvious s***. That's gone. He has now become even lazier, even more indept than he has ever been in his entire life. Give Boo Arc Gohan some credit, he could at least easily use Super Saiyan. Super Gohan has failed even at that.

And if the upcoming chapters are any direction, despite seeing his mentor and father figure killed...again...and noting that he should continue to train and get stronger, he's going to instead be put on the side again and not take that thing to heart.

Gohan might have a few cool moments here and there, but I think its damn clear from my long a*** post that his characterization is a huge inconsistent mess and Toriyama or Toei or whoever doesn't know if Gohan should be a brave fighter willing to take on any challenge, or a scared little nerd who'd rather suck his thumb. I think I know which one I'd personally enjoy.
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Wong Lee
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I liked this episode for the simple fact that this was an homage to Gohan and his retirement. As I predicted before,Gohan's character has come
to an end. This episode marks the closure that Gohan has been longing for a long time since the end of Cell Games. I am glad that Toriyama and Toei have managed to bring a good closure to Gohan and his character. I am also glad that Gohan finally achieves what he always wished for in Z, that is,to become a Normal Human being. It's like most of his life,until now, he has been sacrificing his own desires so that he could fulfill others desires. In a certain aspect it is sad to see, probably the only unique character in Dragon Ball,to retire,but, it is what it is and every character needs a closure when he is retiring.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Closure? They took someone who was literally the laziest person next to Yamcha in the Boo Arc and made him even lazier and more pathetic here in Super. They took everything about him, all that he had built up himself up to or had built himself up to and completely destroyed it. Even at the end where it seems like Gohan is finally going to learn from his mistakes and continue to train and get stronger so he can protect others, seems to get turned entirely on its head when Gohan gets shoved right out of the picture, not even bothering to come to the U6 Tournament despite the fact that Vegeta himself stated Gohan had the best potential out of all of them.

This is the equivalent telling your senile grandfather your going to Disney Land and then taking him to the nursing home. There's nothing good or honorable or cool about this closure. Gohan has become pathetic and useless and instead of working on his character, Toriyama and/or Toei Animation has decided instead to throw him into the trash and let somebody else deal with him.
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To be fair to Gohan, he didn't really like fighting. He was eager to go to Namek because he wanted to fix the mistake he made (Piccolo sacrificing himself). Once he sees that he has to fight, he's not adverse to it because he realises that it's the only way he's going to be able to revive Piccolo.

Come Cell Games, Cell's shown that he's just interested in having a good fight. Aside from the Androids, he's the most negotiable villain; he's the most similar to Goku. Was it naive of Gohan to assume that he could talk Cell down and stop him that way? Yeah, totally. I can understand why he'd try it though. All through his life, he was thrust into situations where he had no choice but to fight for his life and injure/kill his opponents. The first chance he gets to take control of the situation and try to do things his own way is with Cell.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Nagito Komaeda
Dec 19 2015, 04:17 AM
To be fair to Gohan, he didn't really like fighting. He was eager to go to Namek because he wanted to fix the mistake he made (Piccolo sacrificing himself). Once he sees that he has to fight, he's not adverse to it because he realises that it's the only way he's going to be able to revive Piccolo.

Come Cell Games, Cell's shown that he's just interested in having a good fight. Aside from the Androids, he's the most negotiable villain; he's the most similar to Goku. Was it naive of Gohan to assume that he could talk Cell down and stop him that way? Yeah, totally. I can understand why he'd try it though. All through his life, he was thrust into situations where he had no choice but to fight for his life and injure/kill his opponents. The first chance he gets to take control of the situation and try to do things his own way is with Cell.
But why does he act so defenseless then? It took a little while before he even tried talking to Cell and instead of even trying to defend himself or throw a punch if only to get Cell off his back (especially when until Cell used his true speed, Cell's technically not much of a threat to him. Even afterwards he doesn't do any real damage to him. More so afterwards when Gohan realizes Cell can't be reasoned with.)

Why doesn't Gohan finally put his defenses and at least do his best to keep in the fight instead of just being a coward, screaming and doing nothing. Even if he couldn't actually fight Cell in combat, he should've at least shown the determination and courage to stand up to Cell and attempt to fight just as he's done in basically every other fight.
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Wong Lee
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I think you don't understand Gohan's Character in genral and the final closure/development he achieves in episode 23. Let me explain. Up until episode 23 Gohan always believed(like you and many others) that he could be both a 'family man' and at the same time be a warrior who protects his family. But, it is due to the events of this episode and the outcomes that resulted from them that he realized the truth. He realized that he can't be both. He realizes that he can only choose one out of the two. Although,he wants to be both,but, now he realizes that he can only choose one. This is also one of the reasons why Goku does not appears to be be a 'family person'. Because, Goku choose to be a fighter so that he can protect them even though he knows that by becoming a fighter he is probably never going to spend much time with his family. Whereas, Gohan chooses to be a family person. This decision also marks the closure to Gohan's character. It shows how toriyama always desired Gohan to be unique and different from Goku. He never really wanted Gohan to be a clone of Goku like how Goten is now. This why he made Goku and Gohan take different roads.
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My Dear Melancholy,

Gohan hasn't been a warrior at all during Super... He made his choice before the series even started.... when he fight it's like Videl fighting. Only cause he HAS to.

Gohan regret not training as his true father died AGAIN right in front of him. If anything Gohan should go the Vegeta route
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lazerbem
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Wong Lee
Dec 19 2015, 05:08 AM
I think you don't understand Gohan's Character in genral and the final closure/development he achieves in episode 23. Let me explain. Up until episode 23 Gohan always believed(like you and many others) that he could be both a 'family man' and at the same time be a warrior who protects his family. But, it is due to the events of this episode and the outcomes that resulted from them that he realized the truth. He realized that he can't be both. He realizes that he can only choose one out of the two. Although,he wants to be both,but, now he realizes that he can only choose one. This is also one of the reasons why Goku does not appears to be be a 'family person'. Because, Goku choose to be a fighter so that he can protect them even though he knows that by becoming a fighter he is probably never going to spend much time with his family. Whereas, Gohan chooses to be a family person. This decision also marks the closure to Gohan's character. It shows how toriyama always desired Gohan to be unique and different from Goku. He never really wanted Gohan to be a clone of Goku like how Goten is now. This why he made Goku and Gohan take different roads.
Do you know who is both a warrior and a family man? Vegeta

It's not like it's impossible or anything
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Wong Lee
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What Vegeta is so are Goku and Gohan. In fact that's what constitutes being a living being. I am not talking about 70% of X and 1.5% of Y, 23 % of Z and so on I am saying 50% of X and 50% of Y absolutes. That's not possible for anyone.
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