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The "Mystic" Gohan situation
Topic Started: Dec 11 2015, 04:22 AM (5,400 Views)
+ Pyrus
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highwaysaiyan
Dec 13 2015, 12:04 AM
SSj4 Gotenks
Dec 12 2015, 08:11 AM
Pyrus
Dec 12 2015, 07:55 AM
I thought it was ridiculously clear in the manga that this isn't a "transformation" for Gohan. It's a new state of being. Every ounce of his latent power and then some was migrated and assimilated into his base state, thus he had no use for further transformations like Super Saiyan. He was simply Gohan at 150%.

Obviously Toei took the scene where Gohan "powers up" into the state and ignored everything else (like him being stronger than his father, for instance). Of course, it's easier to make it a transformation because then they can exclude it by having Gohan become so pathetically weak he can't even use basic Super Saiyan, let alone something that far transcends it.
I wouldn't blame Toei entirely, Toriyama's explanation in the Buu arc wasn't perfect, Old Kaioshin instructed Gohan to do that super--whatever.
i think it was very clear.
the english version was not clear at all, the japanese was clearer and the manga is clear with almost everything.
the best example is the kid buu battle.
in the anime goku go ssj2 and fight kid buu almost as equals. and then vegeta stepped in and got b*** slapped all over the place. (even though ssj2 vegeta vs ssj2 goku were equals).

on the manga goku never fought buu as ssj2, actually there wasnt any form of buu who ever touched the fist of goku as anything lower than ssj3.




by the way, if gohan was in shape, he could woop the a*** of anyone except for god tiers.
On the note of differences in the Japanese and English versions, since you brought up that example, it was stated by Elder Kaioshin that Goku and Boo were merely "feeling each other out" during their battle in the Japanese version, which explains why Vegeta got stomped (though he did better than his manga counterpart).
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Xfing
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Also, current SSj Gohan is in no way as strong as he was at max power against Super Buu. It's just silly to assume that.

Toei seemingly does treat the Strongest Warrior state as a transformation, or at least a state of power that you need to train to maintain.

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highwaysaiyan
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Pyrus
Dec 13 2015, 12:12 AM
highwaysaiyan
Dec 13 2015, 12:04 AM
SSj4 Gotenks
Dec 12 2015, 08:11 AM
Pyrus
Dec 12 2015, 07:55 AM
I thought it was ridiculously clear in the manga that this isn't a "transformation" for Gohan. It's a new state of being. Every ounce of his latent power and then some was migrated and assimilated into his base state, thus he had no use for further transformations like Super Saiyan. He was simply Gohan at 150%.

Obviously Toei took the scene where Gohan "powers up" into the state and ignored everything else (like him being stronger than his father, for instance). Of course, it's easier to make it a transformation because then they can exclude it by having Gohan become so pathetically weak he can't even use basic Super Saiyan, let alone something that far transcends it.
I wouldn't blame Toei entirely, Toriyama's explanation in the Buu arc wasn't perfect, Old Kaioshin instructed Gohan to do that super--whatever.
i think it was very clear.
the english version was not clear at all, the japanese was clearer and the manga is clear with almost everything.
the best example is the kid buu battle.
in the anime goku go ssj2 and fight kid buu almost as equals. and then vegeta stepped in and got b*** slapped all over the place. (even though ssj2 vegeta vs ssj2 goku were equals).

on the manga goku never fought buu as ssj2, actually there wasnt any form of buu who ever touched the fist of goku as anything lower than ssj3.




by the way, if gohan was in shape, he could woop the a*** of anyone except for god tiers.
On the note of differences in the Japanese and English versions, since you brought up that example, it was stated by Elder Kaioshin that Goku and Boo were merely "feeling each other out" during their battle in the Japanese version, which explains why Vegeta got stomped (though he did better than his manga counterpart).
all that "feeling eachother out" NEVER HAPPENED IN THE MANGA.
in the manga goku NEVER fought buu as ssj1 or 2. it was always ssj3.

the fight and the kioshin conversation were just fillers.

in the manga, goku went ssj3, then fought buu. then vegeta turned ssj2 and protected goku for that minute to make him gather energy.


whenever you find a plothole in the series, its very likely the manga was clear about it. toei just added fillers and and had translation mistakes.
i found the japanese kai to be the best adaptation (although it keeps some fillers).
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+ Pyrus
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highwaysaiyan
Dec 14 2015, 01:37 AM
Pyrus
Dec 13 2015, 12:12 AM
highwaysaiyan
Dec 13 2015, 12:04 AM
SSj4 Gotenks
Dec 12 2015, 08:11 AM
Pyrus
Dec 12 2015, 07:55 AM
I thought it was ridiculously clear in the manga that this isn't a "transformation" for Gohan. It's a new state of being. Every ounce of his latent power and then some was migrated and assimilated into his base state, thus he had no use for further transformations like Super Saiyan. He was simply Gohan at 150%.

Obviously Toei took the scene where Gohan "powers up" into the state and ignored everything else (like him being stronger than his father, for instance). Of course, it's easier to make it a transformation because then they can exclude it by having Gohan become so pathetically weak he can't even use basic Super Saiyan, let alone something that far transcends it.
I wouldn't blame Toei entirely, Toriyama's explanation in the Buu arc wasn't perfect, Old Kaioshin instructed Gohan to do that super--whatever.
i think it was very clear.
the english version was not clear at all, the japanese was clearer and the manga is clear with almost everything.
the best example is the kid buu battle.
in the anime goku go ssj2 and fight kid buu almost as equals. and then vegeta stepped in and got b*** slapped all over the place. (even though ssj2 vegeta vs ssj2 goku were equals).

on the manga goku never fought buu as ssj2, actually there wasnt any form of buu who ever touched the fist of goku as anything lower than ssj3.




by the way, if gohan was in shape, he could woop the a*** of anyone except for god tiers.
On the note of differences in the Japanese and English versions, since you brought up that example, it was stated by Elder Kaioshin that Goku and Boo were merely "feeling each other out" during their battle in the Japanese version, which explains why Vegeta got stomped (though he did better than his manga counterpart).
all that "feeling eachother out" NEVER HAPPENED IN THE MANGA.
in the manga goku NEVER fought buu as ssj1 or 2. it was always ssj3.

the fight and the kioshin conversation were just fillers.

in the manga, goku went ssj3, then fought buu. then vegeta turned ssj2 and protected goku for that minute to make him gather energy.


whenever you find a plothole in the series, its very likely the manga was clear about it. toei just added fillers and and had translation mistakes.
i found the japanese kai to be the best adaptation (although it keeps some fillers).
I know. I was commenting on the filler you brought up.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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Xfing
Dec 14 2015, 12:22 AM
Also, current SSj Gohan is in no way as strong as he was at max power against Super Buu. It's just silly to assume that.

Are you going to explain why? You can't just say something is silly, and then not provide your reasoning for that assumption.
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Vaynarion
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I wouldn't say that if Gohan kept up with training this entire time, that he'd be able to whoop the a$$ of just anyone. There are more than just one time that Gohan was stronger than everyone in Z, that can't be disputed in any way. And even with me still thinking that if Gohan would train as intensively as Vegeta does, Gohan could potential stay above everyone indefinitely. The problem is that he's only half of what Vegeta and Goku are in full blood. There's obvious advantages to being full blooded, whereas half, there's the well of potential but that so far has only been an anomaly with Gohan. I think that Goku or Vegeta will just continue to gain, to the point that even if Gohan began to train again, and seriously. There would just be too big of a gap there for Gohan to face any future threat beyond the seemingly neutral, potential ally in Beerus and Whis.

I guess I am saying that Gohan and his potential has a limit. The gains or forms Vegeta or Goku can gain, perhaps Gohan could also only gain up to a certain point. Beyond that. Gohan would just maintain by continual training. Vegeta and Goku will always move ahead.

Mystic Gohan right now in Super couldn't stand against Goku or Vegeta, or Beerus or Whis. Possibly he'd hold his own against Frieza, but the minute Golden Frieza came in to being, Gohan wouldn't win. We all saw how Goku struggled against Golden Frieza up until Golden Frieza began to lose power due to not mastering his new form. So there'd be no way Mystic Gohan would be close to as strong is Golden Frieza, let alone God Form Goku or Vegeta.

Mystic Gohan was cool. But he was only a force in the Buu Saga. Now though. I think he'd easily dispatch of Tagoma/Ginyu or however his name is spelled. But I just don't see Mystic Gohan being anywhere near the level Goku and Vegeta are right now. Even if Gohan had trained all this time.
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Xfing
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Where did the fan term "Mystic" come from, anyway? It has literally zero presence in any of the official sources. Can't speak about the games tho.
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+ Steve
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

I dunno, I think Mystic sounds lame I prefer "Ultimate"

It is his ultimate form and f*** knows he's never getting another power up...



Anyway I just skimmed through episode 22 and HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

PEOPLE DEFEND THIS

NO

BEING DRAGON BALL DOESN'T GIVE IT A FREE PASS

*cough*


I'm under the firm belief that at some point Gohan contracted a horrific body deforming disease that has him forever weakened to 1% of what he used to be whilst also giving him brain damage to the degree that he doesn't understand that.

Prove my theory wrong I dare you...

Secondary theory: Don't watch Super ever again as it's beyond a joke
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not
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Xfing
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GT did that to Gohan too you know!

But I get where you're coming from, Super is being propped up to have "canon continuation" legitimacy, so things like that can't be forgiven as easily because of the "non-canon" status.

But here at least an explanation was given - Gohan hasn't been training. In GT he's weak just like that.

Besides, there are hints he'll take that defeat to heart and start training properly again. By EoZ he has his "Ultimate" facial features again, and Toei can't ignore that if they want to keep what's left of Super's legitimacy.
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Tinny
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Xfing
Dec 14 2015, 12:30 PM
GT did that to Gohan too you know!

But I get where you're coming from, Super is being propped up to have "canon continuation" legitimacy, so things like that can't be forgiven as easily because of the "non-canon" status.

But here at least an explanation was given - Gohan hasn't been training. In GT he's weak just like that.

Besides, there are hints he'll take that defeat to heart and start training properly again. By EoZ he has his "Ultimate" facial features again, and Toei can't ignore that if they want to keep what's left of Super's legitimacy.
He never kicked his own a*** by powering up.
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This is how Super portrays Gohan.

He did that in the BoG arc as well, see the above pic for the result. And frankly Super has no legitimacy, for allot of people anyway, it's filler noncanon trash now for me certainly. I can't even get hyped fire U6 at this point thus so bad. Besides do you really think they'll give even a little redirect to someone not named Goku and Vegeta? Goten and Trunks struggled with a random snake. Gohan has this done to him. Everyone is completely irrelevant.

Why didn't Super start at U6? Why?
Edited by Tinny, Dec 14 2015, 12:37 PM.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Xfing
Dec 14 2015, 12:30 PM
GT did that to Gohan too you know!

But I get where you're coming from, Super is being propped up to have "canon continuation" legitimacy, so things like that can't be forgiven as easily because of the "non-canon" status.

But here at least an explanation was given - Gohan hasn't been training. In GT he's weak just like that.

Besides, there are hints he'll take that defeat to heart and start training properly again. By EoZ he has his "Ultimate" facial features again, and Toei can't ignore that if they want to keep what's left of Super's legitimacy.
EoZ also thinks that Oob is relevant power-wise, so it's obvious that Super is completely disregarding EoZ.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

Freeza became relevant again. I don't see why Oob couldn't.
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Lord Vader
Dec 14 2015, 01:11 PM
Freeza became relevant again. I don't see why Oob couldn't.
Freeza trained. We see that Oob trained somewhat before the EoZ, but unless you think Super is going to retcon Oob's strength and have him reaching God levels of strength by just training in his village and having an absolutely ridiculous amount of potential, it's not happening.
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Tinny
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Nagito Komaeda
Dec 14 2015, 03:07 PM
Lord Vader
Dec 14 2015, 01:11 PM
Freeza became relevant again. I don't see why Oob couldn't.
Freeza trained. We see that Oob trained somewhat before the EoZ, but unless you think Super is going to retcon Oob's strength and have him reaching God levels of strength by just training in his village and having an absolutely ridiculous amount of potential, it's not happening.
To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if they did exactly that.
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Sounds like you are saying it as if Goku was going all out against Oob. i dont even think he used 20% of his base power. heck i say he used more strength against Freeza on namek than this little runt. he may be Kid Buu reincarnated, but i dont see how he's kid buu level yet. someone clarify pleeasee
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