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Dragonball super worse than GT; Discussion
Topic Started: Dec 8 2015, 09:34 PM (13,203 Views)
lazerbem
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Xfing
Dec 14 2015, 12:42 PM
While I agree Goku is rather unlikable and Vegeta's a doormat, they still compare positively to their GT counterparts (not that that's any defense for Super, but still...)

Goku is silly and goofy, as well as obsessively bent on training and getting stronger, these two aspects of his canon persona are overblown. But in GT he almost entirely lost his most defining trait - knowing when to give up when the enemy is stronger. Canon Goku does what he can, but after he's spent, he quits - he did that against Cell and he did that against Beerus. He admitted defeat. Whereas GT Goku not only didn't quit when fighting against Baby Vegeta despite being battered from left to right, he even delivered come cringeworthy lines in the vein of "i'll defeat you anyway, you'll see, goodness always triumphs" etc. Not to mention Goku's battle smarts being entirely gone in GT. You can say many bad things about DBS Goku, but he's kept his astuteness. Just like he figured out almost immediately in Z that FPSSj is a better way to realize the SSj power than Grade 2 or 3, he also realized Golden Freeza's weakness before the latter himself could. Whereas in GT what did Goku do? - He fired a Kamehameha at Super 17 like 10 times before figuring out he gets stronger by absorbing energy. Even though he's fought Android 19 before, who had the same ability. That should ring a bell, shouldn't it? And what did he do after figuring it out? He fired yet another Kamehameha at him! Seriously?

So even though in Super some of Goku's interactions were rather unfortunate, he's still in character for the most part - way, way better than he was in GT. We can give Super Goku at least that.
Goku was likely trying to overload Super 17, the same way he overloaded Yakon. Goku only gave up against Cell because he had a backup plan, he certainly didn't give up against Freeza even though he was dozens of times weaker
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+ Pyrus
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Goku using a mirror in leu of persisting to get his a*** handed to him by Si Xing Long is smarter than anything he's done in Super.
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bloodstained euphy
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I may hate Gt but even I would say it's better than "Super".

> Lazy recolors (SSJG and SSJB), SSJ4's design and concept was much much better
> The name "SSJGSSJ", f**k that BS name
> Goku turning into a careless planet-destroying idiot who puts universe at risk just to have a fight, wtf really
> Everyone not named Goku or Vegeta being useless and nerfed, to a worse degree than even Gt
> Gohan lost Ultimate, like Gt, but it's even worse in DBS
> Not having it's own story, rather repeating DBZ movies 14 & 15 in episodic form
> Even worse powerscaling than Gt's
> and more, like Buu becoming an a**, etc.

Never accepting that as part of the DBZverse, I'd rather have it as a separate story. There's the DBZ multiverse, the Gt universe, and the DBS multiverse.
Edited by bloodstained euphy, Dec 14 2015, 01:52 PM.
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DBZAOTA482
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Dark Matter
Dec 11 2015, 03:22 AM
As far as DBZ villains go, Beerus and Fat Boo are the only ones who act under morally unique ways and not in the typical villainous sense. That same thing of course can't be said for Super Beerus whom pretty cranks up the dick sauce pretty high.

People like Kid Boo, Janemba, Bio-Broly and Hirudengard sort of lack the mental capacity to understand their actions that much but unfortunately also means they aren't given much characterization to begin with.

As for everyone else, even if their motivations are different, their overall characterization is not. There is absolutely nothing different from the likes of any of the DBZ movie villains up until you get to the likes of Bio-Broly (which is somewhat questionable on itself) There is nothing different between Vegeta as a villain, Freeza as a villain, Cell as a villain and up from Super Boo above as a villain. They may all have different motivations and quirks, which for the most part barely add in distinguishing marks between them and certainly change very little to anything of their characterization.

Again, it is amazing how when you get down to it, the villains in DBZ are so bland and how only a few were given any sort of depth. Even those like Vegeta and Piccolo who became better, as villains were essentially the same thing.
Not really... Vegeta wasn't exactly faux polite or overly sadistic like Freeza (he was more of a brute than a sadist). He was calculative, elitist, and prideful unlike Freeza... not to mention he also wasn't a coward at heart.

Cell was more of a mesh of various personality traits from characters of his DNA. He was faux polite like Freeza, was a fearmonger like Piccolo Daimao, enjoyed the challenge of a strong opponent (like Saiyans do), was tactical like Piccolo, and arrogant like Vegeta (to a greater extreme).

Super Boo was boring... I'll give you that. In fact, I only liked Fat Boo as a villain out of all the Majins.

Piccolo was a far cry from Vegeta and Freeza... he was generally standoffish and showed genuine respect towards his opponents. He wasn't really that evil... he was just acting out his father's will.

Edited by DBZAOTA482, Dec 14 2015, 02:43 PM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Vegeta, Cell, Piccolo (King Piccolo too) and Freeza.

1.) Overly confident and full of themselves. Each one thought they were better than anyone else.

2.) Other than Imperfect Cell, all were easily angered and often took it out on others by trying to blow up everything around them.

3.) Many were sadistic, killing practically for the fun of it. Something I believed missed out is that Vegeta loved being a cold hearted Saiyan but just hated being subservient to Freeza. Cell wanted to watch everyone's face twist in fear, King Piccolo was going to blow up each major region for fun and the less we talk about Freeza the better.

Like I said, there may be some differences in motivations and quirks, but you basically come down to that same villainous characterization we've seen all the time. That prideful, arrogant, easily angered, enjoyed causing harm, hated losing, many showed a sense of politeness and respect when they weren't losing yet turned into screaming children when things didn't go their way, etc.

Each one again may have a few quirks here and there that stood out but they were overall the same villainous concept.
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DBZAOTA482
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Dark Matter
Dec 14 2015, 02:47 PM
Vegeta, Cell, Piccolo (King Piccolo too) and Freeza.

1.) Overly confident and full of themselves. Each one thought they were better than anyone else.

2.) Other than Imperfect Cell, all were easily angered and often took it out on others by trying to blow up everything around them.

3.) Many were sadistic, killing practically for the fun of it. Something I believed missed out is that Vegeta loved being a cold hearted Saiyan but just hated being subservient to Freeza. Cell wanted to watch everyone's face twist in fear, King Piccolo was going to blow up each major region for fun and the less we talk about Freeza the better.

Like I said, there may be some differences in motivations and quirks, but you basically come down to that same villainous characterization we've seen all the time. That prideful, arrogant, easily angered, enjoyed causing harm, hated losing, many showed a sense of politeness and respect when they weren't losing yet turned into screaming children when things didn't go their way, etc.

Each one again may have a few quirks here and there that stood out but they were overall the same villainous concept.
Piccolo never threw tantrums. Vegeta threw one because a low-class saiyan made him bleed, Freeza threw one because he afraid of dying, and Cell threw one because he wasn't the perfect being he thought he was.

Vegeta took pride on his race... he even wanted to slaughter Goku's friends in front of him for his betrayal.
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lazerbem
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Vegeta didn't give a s*** about hisvrace except in his own mind. He didn't spare a second thought when he killed Nappa
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Thiln
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Actually, Piccolo during the 23rd tournament was very much like Saiyan arc Vegeta. He even threatened to kill everyone out of rage similar to Vegeta's attempt to destroy the planet and was hoping to use the opportunity to provoke Goku into taking the attack.

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DBZAOTA482
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Again... acting out his father's will (revenge against Goku and world domination). He was otherwise just standoffish and actually showed towards his opponents. Vegeta was loud, pompous, and elitist.
Edited by DBZAOTA482, Dec 14 2015, 04:46 PM.
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I think the thing that truly made me realise just how bad Goku has become in Super is the (second) last line in GT "That's the Goku we all loved". Toei might have had a bit of a hard on for Goku, but at least they wrote him as a good character (I honestly prefer the more heroic Goku to the selfish.simple Toriyama Goku). Super Goku tries to be like Toriyama's Goku, but they went way overboard. I don't really have THAT much of a problem with him, but he's definitely not "the Goku we all loved" anymore.
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ekrolo2
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Clearin
Dec 14 2015, 09:07 PM
I think the thing that truly made me realise just how bad Goku has become in Super is the (second) last line in GT "That's the Goku we all loved". Toei might have had a bit of a hard on for Goku, but at least they wrote him as a good character (I honestly prefer the more heroic Goku to the selfish.simple Toriyama Goku). Super Goku tries to be like Toriyama's Goku, but they went way overboard. I don't really have THAT much of a problem with him, but he's definitely not "the Goku we all loved" anymore.
Heroic Goku at least gives the illusion that Goku might care about something else besides fighting has grown somewhat instead of the eternally and unjustly loved Toriyama Goku who's pretty much a selfish dick since Namek.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

What I don't understand is how this whole "selfish Goku" came to be. I mean sure if we're talking Pre-Kami Goku you might say Goku's selfish...but it is damn clear that afterwards, Goku was one of the most selfless beings in the series. I've pointed it out before but Goku was a guy whom after meeting Kami was merciful and kindhearted...perhaps bordering on foolishness at times. He loved fighting but he also loved the Earth and the people around it. He was willing to step away from Earth if it meant protecting it and was clearly infuriated when the villains caused damage to others around it. His interaction with Gero and South City expresses this perfectly.

Goku might not have worn a cape and talked about world peace but he sure as hell had a heart. He did not let his desire for a good fight cloud his moral judgement. Something which unfortunately got lost over the Boo Arc. Honestly if you put the Boo Arc personality of Goku against say the 23rd Budokai Goku, 23rd Goku would probably have let Piccolo kill everyone in the tournament. Hell he'd probably take him to a populated city and fight him there.

EDIT:

And you know what? If you want to create a morally questionable hero who loves to fight more than care that's fine? But don't act like he's the greatest thing ever. Because that's another problem Goku has. He has so many flaws but is never called out on them by anyone. Goku is always the strongest, always in the right and therefore can never be questioned.

And it's a steaming load of BS.
Edited by EMIYA, Dec 14 2015, 09:44 PM.
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Dark Matter
Dec 14 2015, 09:42 PM
What I don't understand is how this whole "selfish Goku" came to be. I mean sure if we're talking Pre-Kami Goku you might say Goku's selfish...but it is damn clear that afterwards, Goku was one of the most selfless beings in the series. I've pointed it out before but Goku was a guy whom after meeting Kami was merciful and kindhearted...perhaps bordering on foolishness at times. He loved fighting but he also loved the Earth and the people around it. He was willing to step away from Earth if it meant protecting it and was clearly infuriated when the villains caused damage to others around it. His interaction with Gero and South City expresses this perfectly.

Goku might not have worn a cape and talked about world peace but he sure as hell had a heart. He did not let his desire for a good fight cloud his moral judgement. Something which unfortunately got lost over the Boo Arc. Honestly if you put the Boo Arc personality of Goku against say the 23rd Budokai Goku, 23rd Goku would probably have let Piccolo kill everyone in the tournament. Hell he'd probably take him to a populated city and fight him there.

EDIT:

And you know what? If you want to create a morally questionable hero who loves to fight more than care that's fine? But don't act like he's the greatest thing ever. Because that's another problem Goku has. He has so many flaws but is never called out on them by anyone. Goku is always the strongest, always in the right and therefore can never be questioned.

And it's a steaming load of BS.
You're exaggerating a bit. Boo saga Goku demanded that he'd fight Vegeta only if they were teleported away from other people.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Fair enough, but he also decided to fight Fat Boo over West City and destroyed 10% of the Earth's population (if indirectly)...even Babidi called him out on that one.
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ekrolo2
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Dark Matter
Dec 14 2015, 09:42 PM
What I don't understand is how this whole "selfish Goku" came to be. I mean sure if we're talking Pre-Kami Goku you might say Goku's selfish...but it is damn clear that afterwards, Goku was one of the most selfless beings in the series. I've pointed it out before but Goku was a guy whom after meeting Kami was merciful and kindhearted...perhaps bordering on foolishness at times. He loved fighting but he also loved the Earth and the people around it. He was willing to step away from Earth if it meant protecting it and was clearly infuriated when the villains caused damage to others around it. His interaction with Gero and South City expresses this perfectly.

Goku might not have worn a cape and talked about world peace but he sure as hell had a heart. He did not let his desire for a good fight cloud his moral judgement. Something which unfortunately got lost over the Boo Arc. Honestly if you put the Boo Arc personality of Goku against say the 23rd Budokai Goku, 23rd Goku would probably have let Piccolo kill everyone in the tournament. Hell he'd probably take him to a populated city and fight him there.
It comes from his later appearances really spotlighting just how selfish he is which retroactively has made people, like myself, question his decision to not kill Piccolo. I know he says he wants to spare Piccolo because it would be wrong to kill him but honestly, I think its more than likely a combination of wanting to preserve the DBs AND the only worthwhile opponent he has left.

He doesn't let Vegeta go out of the kindness of his heart, he lets him go so they can fight again even though the guy and his partner just murdered most of his friends and almost killed him and his son. He doesn't let Freeza go because of mercy but out of spite. He wanted for Freeza to spend the rest of his life infuriated that a Super Saiyan took his title of "strongest in the universe" away from him. In the future time-line, Goku straight up murders him and Cold.

Then there's the Cell Saga where Goku starts showing his true colors. Instead of listening to Bulma and stopping a threat he knows caused catastrophic damage in the future, he chooses to fight them instead which ends up killing him, Trunks and nearly destroys the Earth. All so he can get in a good fight.

The Boo Saga is another example where he lets stupid Saiyan logic & his own love for combat take over. Instead of telling Vegeta to piss off, power up to SSJ3 and one shot him, Goku humors the barely controlled murderous sociopath and gives him a battle, enjoying himself in the process until Majin Boo waking up snaps him out of it. Then he and Vegeta both crush the Potara because he knows it'll be more fun to fight him as he is now because Vegetto would spank Kid Boo to death easily, and Goku finds that boring.

Goku to me doesn't come off as selfless at all, he's an obsessed moron who more often than not actively helps in making things worse until they get so bad even he can't ignore it anymore. Although he never realizes he helped to worsen the issue, honestly Chi-Chi is the only character in the ENTIRE DB UNIVERSE who has a hint of a clue as to what Goku is actually like. Then there's the way he blatantly doesn't care about anyone else unless they're dead, in-danger of dying or can be of use to him which is a whole other can of worms.
Edited by ekrolo2, Dec 14 2015, 09:54 PM.
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