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| Dragonball super worse than GT; Discussion | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 8 2015, 09:34 PM (13,204 Views) | |
| + Solid Snake | Dec 11 2015, 12:07 AM Post #46 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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Dark Matter - I disagree, not all the villains where carbon copies. Each and everyone of them had a unique characteristic(s) alongside their evilness and were also motivated for their evil (especially seen in Vegeta's case). |
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| EMIYA | Dec 11 2015, 12:34 AM Post #47 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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I specifically left out the Ginyu Force because, while nothing too much, still had a merit of different that helped them stand out among the other villains. Nappa though, really isn't all that much different from the other villains. He was evil, destructive, self absorbed, enjoyed hurting others, thought he was better than those weaker than him, easily angered, threw tantrums. When you get down to it, other than slight differences in motivations, basically all the villains were the same people. Ginyu himself was actually really close to being unique as when we first see him, we're given the idea that he's actually a very honorable opponent who even refuses to attack when Jeice gets in the way. Yet we come to the point where he can't stand losing, takes cheap shots (though pragmatism one might say) and ends up looking not much different from the other villains. It's not nearly as bad but its still there. It's amazing how one dimensional most of the villains in DBZ and the movies became with only a select few showing any real differences or unique traits that helped them stand out among the rest. |
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| FutureProtagonist | Dec 11 2015, 01:10 AM Post #48 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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Making a DBZ villain is easy - pure evil + quirk. |
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| + Solid Snake | Dec 11 2015, 01:25 AM Post #49 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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Just like Orochimaru. |
![]() Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| ekrolo2 | Dec 11 2015, 03:02 AM Post #50 |
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I'm gonna say Baby managed to break the villain mold to an extent least by virtue of having a genuine reason for hating the good guys and acting the way he does along with his end game being more than "Ima blow up the Earth!". But in all honesty, Beerus is the only guy where a morally ambigous antagonist has worked in DB fully.
Edited by ekrolo2, Dec 11 2015, 03:03 AM.
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| EMIYA | Dec 11 2015, 03:22 AM Post #51 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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As far as DBZ villains go, Beerus and Fat Boo are the only ones who act under morally unique ways and not in the typical villainous sense. That same thing of course can't be said for Super Beerus whom pretty cranks up the dick sauce pretty high. People like Kid Boo, Janemba, Bio-Broly and Hirudengard sort of lack the mental capacity to understand their actions that much but unfortunately also means they aren't given much characterization to begin with. As for everyone else, even if their motivations are different, their overall characterization is not. There is absolutely nothing different from the likes of any of the DBZ movie villains up until you get to the likes of Bio-Broly (which is somewhat questionable on itself) There is nothing different between Vegeta as a villain, Freeza as a villain, Cell as a villain and up from Super Boo above as a villain. They may all have different motivations and quirks, which for the most part barely add in distinguishing marks between them and certainly change very little to anything of their characterization. Again, it is amazing how when you get down to it, the villains in DBZ are so bland and how only a few were given any sort of depth. Even those like Vegeta and Piccolo who became better, as villains were essentially the same thing. |
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| + QueenTD | Dec 11 2015, 03:24 AM Post #52 |
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My Dear Melancholy,
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Hey you can never go wrong with a simple plot. That's how DB got famous and the 2nd all time best selling manga. |
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| Vaynarion | Dec 11 2015, 05:30 PM Post #53 |
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I wholeheartedly believe that Super is going to improve once this recapping is over with. Even with these first 22 episodes, pretty much all of which is the two movies retold. Super is still better than the majority of GT. I had my own moments of GT I really liked. But overall the series just fell flat for me. Just stick with Super. It'll get better when the all new story kicks in. |
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| Xfing | Dec 14 2015, 12:12 PM Post #54 |
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I'm getting the distinct impression that people wouldn't be complaining so much if there were never those two movies. The "we've seen that already" aspect definitely ruins the excitement of the show and it probably wasn't a very good idea to retell the movies. But when the new, original sagas start it's gonna be all better. Of course it isn't going to be like DB Multiverse or DB Heroes, embracing all the movie-ness and GT-ness in portraying the universe. It's gonna be a more Toriyama-style DB experience. And thank goodness. |
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| Tinny | Dec 14 2015, 12:18 PM Post #55 |
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The series would have been garbage even without the movie. Goku still turned evil, Gohan is still treated pathetically, the pilaf gang are there for no reason, multiple scenes are ruined, inconsistencies galore, bad animation for this day and age, Vegeta has completely regressed as a character, and Goku is an unlikable A-hole. They aren't just retellings, they're horrible retellings that can't maintain much if anything that was good in the movies. I've been reading the manga, and I doubt it, it's very underwhelming and now, "okay I guess" doesn't make up for all the s*** it's thrown on its audience. It should have started with U6, now it's gonna have to work back my willingness to watch, instead of you know, me being hyped. Was anyone complaining about that? Edited by Tinny, Dec 14 2015, 12:27 PM.
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| Xfing | Dec 14 2015, 12:42 PM Post #56 |
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While I agree Goku is rather unlikable and Vegeta's a doormat, they still compare positively to their GT counterparts (not that that's any defense for Super, but still...) Goku is silly and goofy, as well as obsessively bent on training and getting stronger, these two aspects of his canon persona are overblown. But in GT he almost entirely lost his most defining trait - knowing when to give up when the enemy is stronger. Canon Goku does what he can, but after he's spent, he quits - he did that against Cell and he did that against Beerus. He admitted defeat. Whereas GT Goku not only didn't quit when fighting against Baby Vegeta despite being battered from left to right, he even delivered come cringeworthy lines in the vein of "i'll defeat you anyway, you'll see, goodness always triumphs" etc. Not to mention Goku's battle smarts being entirely gone in GT. You can say many bad things about DBS Goku, but he's kept his astuteness. Just like he figured out almost immediately in Z that FPSSj is a better way to realize the SSj power than Grade 2 or 3, he also realized Golden Freeza's weakness before the latter himself could. Whereas in GT what did Goku do? - He fired a Kamehameha at Super 17 like 10 times before figuring out he gets stronger by absorbing energy. Even though he's fought Android 19 before, who had the same ability. That should ring a bell, shouldn't it? And what did he do after figuring it out? He fired yet another Kamehameha at him! Seriously? So even though in Super some of Goku's interactions were rather unfortunate, he's still in character for the most part - way, way better than he was in GT. We can give Super Goku at least that. |
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| Tinny | Dec 14 2015, 12:47 PM Post #57 |
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Wait what? I'm Super he also lost that trait just look at the fought with Beerus! He didn't quit against Beerus at any point. His intelligence in battle has also entirely deserted him, he's a mess, a horrible strategist, Nappa level tactics almost. That's the movie Xfing and I'm pretty sure they'll cut that out in favour of Jaco shenanigans or something. He fired a Kamehameha at Beerus thrice and apparently at no point realized Beerus can nullify energy. Second time Beerus outright reminded him, he had no excuse the third time. Even worse since Beerus verbally reminded him and talked about it twice in the fight while demonstrating it. Everything you just said applies to Super. The movies are what avert then really. Edited by Tinny, Dec 14 2015, 12:49 PM.
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| Xfing | Dec 14 2015, 12:56 PM Post #58 |
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Well, you can't really compare Goku vs Beerus to Goku vs Baby - in the first case the fighters were evenly matched, as in Beerus was lowering himself to Goku's level and making sport of him. In GT Baby was completely ruining Goku. At least in BoG and Super Goku realized he'd lost and resigned himself to the fate of Earth being destroyed. That's what makes him different from GT Goku. |
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| Tinny | Dec 14 2015, 01:06 PM Post #59 |
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BoG certainly bit again, Goku didn't give up in Super, at best you can say he gave up when tried to ask Beerus why he was doubt that, but the man fought until he dropped (for the sixth time or so). And this was at the point where Beerus was back to finger flicking him. The only real difference was that Goku failed in Super. |
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| Thiln | Dec 14 2015, 01:09 PM Post #60 |
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I think Dark Matter really hit the nail on the head with his posts. Nearly all of the villains in DB are all cut from the same nefarious cloth. What is it that they want? To conquer or destroy the world. How do they go about accomplishing this goal? By killing everyone in their way. Do they enjoy what they do? Obviously, they carry it out with big smiles on their faces. It seems like Toriyama simply recycles motives and methodologies for his villains just like he rehashes transformations to stop them with. There's about as much dimension in their personalities as a cardboard cutout. Whatever meagre distinctions that exist between them are largely undeveloped and unseen. BoG Beerus is somewhat of an outlier here amongst Toriyama's rouges' gallery but the issue with him stems from that fact that his character is treated like a gag most of the time. The neutral indifferent force of nature which he's supposed to represent is marred by his puerile hunger for food and antics with Whis. He can't be taken seriously most of the time because of this. It just goes to show you how abysmal the characterisation of villains is in DB. Edited by Thiln, Dec 14 2015, 01:52 PM.
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